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post #1 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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LGD 65" Top Emission WOLED (for 2020 release)

At this point, I'd say it's a near-certainty that in 2020 we'll see 65", 75/77", and 88" 8K WOLEDs based on too-emission technology (and a new IGZO bsckplane): http://www.oled-info.com/lg-display...oleds-ces-2019

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post #2 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 03:11 PM
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fafrd you *really* shouldn't have opened this thread. I was five minutes in having decided this was the year to go OLED. Quick, now tell us all the drawbacks of top emission!
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post #3 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
At this point, I'd say it's a near-certainty that in 2020 we'll see 65", 75/77", and 88" 8K WOLEDs based on too-emission technology (and a new IGZO bsckplane): http://www.oled-info.com/lg-display...oleds-ces-2019
Do you see LGD still making 4K Oled panels for 2020 models?

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post #4 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
Do you see LGD still making 4K Oled panels for 2020 models?
Even in the most wildly-successful scenario for 8K TV sales in 2019, I can't see LG ditching 4K panels in 2020.

First of all, 55" psnels will never go 8K, at least not until 8K is very fully mature.

At 65", LG has done great in thePremium Market because they have 65" 4K WOLEDs selling for $2000 - if they only have 65" 8K WOLEDs selling for at least twice that, their market share will plummet back to 2015/2016 levels. So I'm pretty sure we're going to see both 4K and 8K WOLED panels, at leadt through 2020.

At 75/77", I would not see LG use the opportunity to introduce the 75" panel they'll need for their 10.5G fab, but even there, they've just made a great deal at that size by introducing the 77C8 for close to $5K (discounted) and if that gets replaced by an 8K 75" for twice that orice, sales volumes and market share will plummet.

So at 75/77", I would not be surprised to see bith a 4K 77" and an 8K 75" in 2020. And eventually, certainly once the 10.5G fab has ramped, I'd expect the 77" 4K to be end-of-lifed in favor of the 75" 8K...

So going back to the 1080p/4K transition, 75/77" is almost certainly the new 55", and it is possible that 65" fully transitions to 8K as well, but I expect LG to be cautios about that and only (possibly) ditch 4K 65" WOLEDs if and when they can be manufactured at close to price parity with a 4K 65" WOLED (which may be never, or al least take a long time).

The focus on HFR, VRR and BFI is very good news for 4K WOLEDs - they will always have refresh rates that are intrinsically twice as fast as 8K WOLEDs (and require 1/2 to 1/4 the number of TCON controllers...

I see a pathway to a $1000 65" 4K WOLED once the 10.5G fab is fully ramped. It'll take much, much longer for 8K 65" WOLEDs to reach that pricepoint.

As LG continues to increase manufacturing capacity, that means they must expand below the Premium Market.

That will eventually mean 49" WOLEDs (some are rumoring this year), and it's almost certain to mean lower-cost 4K 55" and 65" WOLEDs...

So if your interested in 65" @ 4K, I believe you have a pretty-long runway, but if you are interested in 77" 4K WOLED (as am I), 2020 may be the last year before the window closes...
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post #5 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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fafrd you *really* shouldn't have opened this thread. I was five minutes in having decided this was the year to go OLED. Quick, now tell us all the drawbacks of top emission!
The only drawback is that it is a major change so heir is increased risk of bleeding-edge production problems (think the possibility of Vignetting Round II )

But for what it is worth, I held off on a 77C8 to see what 2019 would bring, and I've now pretty much decided to hold off on a 77C9 to see what 2020 brings (which llooks lile a much more significant upgrade on many front!).

If I did not already have a 65C6P I was very happy with, I'd jump on a C9, though. It looks like a significant step forward from the C8...
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post #6 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Even in the most wildly-successful scenario for 8K TV sales in 2019, I can't see LG ditching 4K panels in 2020.

First of all, 55" psnels will never go 8K, at least not until 8K is very fully mature.

At 65", LG has done great in thePremium Market because they have 65" 4K WOLEDs selling for $2000 - if they only have 65" 8K WOLEDs selling for at least twice that, their market share will plummet back to 2015/2016 levels. So I'm pretty sure we're going to see both 4K and 8K WOLED panels, at leadt through 2020.

At 75/77", I would not see LG use the opportunity to introduce the 75" panel they'll need for their 10.5G fab, but even there, they've just made a great deal at that size by introducing the 77C8 for close to $5K (discounted) and if that gets replaced by an 8K 75" for twice that orice, sales volumes and market share will plummet.

So at 75/77", I would not be surprised to see bith a 4K 77" and an 8K 75" in 2020. And eventually, certainly once the 10.5G fab has ramped, I'd expect the 77" 4K to be end-of-lifed in favor of the 75" 8K...

So going back to the 1080p/4K transition, 75/77" is almost certainly the new 55", and it is possible that 65" fully transitions to 8K as well, but I expect LG to be cautios about that and only (possibly) ditch 4K 65" WOLEDs if and when they can be manufactured at close to price parity with a 4K 65" WOLED (which may be never, or al least take a long time).

The focus on HFR, VRR and BFI is very good news for 4K WOLEDs - they will always have refresh rates that are intrinsically twice as fast as 8K WOLEDs (and require 1/2 to 1/4 the number of TCON controllers...

I see a pathway to a $1000 65" 4K WOLED once the 10.5G fab is fully ramped. It'll take much, much longer for 8K 65" WOLEDs to reach that pricepoint.

As LG continues to increase manufacturing capacity, that means they must expand below the Premium Market.

That will eventually mean 49" WOLEDs (some are rumoring this year), and it's almost certain to mean lower-cost 4K 55" and 65" WOLEDs...

So if your interested in 65" @ 4K, I believe you have a pretty-long runway, but if you are interested in 77" 4K WOLED (as am I), 2020 may be the last year before the window closes...
Sounds like a good forecast. I was thinking in 2020 only 55' and smaller Oleds would be available in 4K. With the 65" up Oleds being 8K only.

While at the same time upping their game with their higher model LCD/LED units to fill in the missing $$$$ gap. Making them brighter (FALD?) and generally more competitive to other high end LCD models in the market. Something they have been failing to do for a while in my opinion.

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post #7 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
Sounds like a good forecast. I was thinking in 2020 only 55' and smaller Oleds would be available in 4K. With the 65" up Oleds being 8K only.

While at the same time upping their game with their higher model LCD/LED units to fill in the missing $$$$ gap. Making them brighter (FALD?) and generally more competitive to other high end LCD models in the market. Something they have been failing to do for a while in my opinion.
Can't comment on LG's LED/LCDs (no intetest).

For oerspective, in 3020', LGD will have capacity in place to manufacture close to 6 million WOLED panels.

That represents ~60% of the entire Oremium TV segment - they need to expand to the sub-Premium segment where the Vizio P Quantum enjoys success (among others). 4K 55" and 65" (and 49") WOLEDs can get them thete - 8K 65" (and >65" WOLEDs) cannot...
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post #8 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 04:02 PM
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The only drawback is that it is a major change so heir is increased risk of bleeding-edge production problems (think the possibility of Vignetting Round II )

But for what it is worth, I held off on a 77C8 to see what 2019 would bring, and I've now pretty much decided to hold off on a 77C9 to see what 2020 brings (which llooks lile a much more significant upgrade on many front!).

If I did not already have a 65C6P I was very happy with, I'd jump on a C9, though. It looks like a significant step forward from the C8...
And of course without 3D...why would you want to downgrade to anything lesser. I mean 8K 1 million nits N perfect blacks sounds nice and all but...still a downgrade from your 3D C6P.

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post #9 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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And of course without 3D...why would you want to downgrade to anything lesser. I mean 8K 1 million nits N perfect blacks sounds nice and all but...still and downgrade from you C6P.
I ise my C6 for 3D 2-3 times per year (and compelling new releases are becoming harder and harder to come by).

I use it for HDR nightly, and am not a huge sports buff, but watch more live-action sports on my WOLED tjan 3D...

So I'll have no refrets ditching 3D for a larger screen, better/easier HDR, and improved motion performance (especially if the BFI also improves near-black uniformity, as is now proven).

Of course, for a much poorer panel in a continuing near-black-uniformity panel lottery, none of those improvements woud be worth the cost, so I'll probably pay up for return rights and be certain what I'm getting before I ditch the 65C6P.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love good 3D content on my WOLED, I'm just accepting of reality and you can only watch the same 3D movies so many times before it gets kind of old...

HDR has a much bigger impact on our everyday viewing that 3D ever did.
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post #10 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Can't comment on LG's LED/LCDs (no intetest).

For oerspective, in 3020', LGD will have capacity in place to manufacture close to 6 million WOLED panels.

That represents ~60% of the entire Oremium TV segment - they need to expand to the sub-Premium segment where the Vizio P Quantum enjoys success (among others). 4K 55" and 65" (and 49") WOLEDs can get them thete - 8K 65" (and >65" WOLEDs) cannot...
You might be right...I need to remember the costs of Oled panels might be dropping a lot soon.

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post #11 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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You might be right...I need to remember the costs of Oled panels might be dropping a lot soon.
The 77C8 broke under $5K this November (if you knew where to look) and once the 10.5G fab is fully up and running, $2000 75" 4K WOLEDs can be a reality (unless LGDs sales volumes are so good they can afford to replace 77" 4K with 75" 8K at over twice the price by then...).
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post #12 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
The only drawback is that it is a major change so heir is increased risk of bleeding-edge production problems (think the possibility of Vignetting Round II )

But for what it is worth, I held off on a 77C8 to see what 2019 would bring, and I've now pretty much decided to hold off on a 77C9 to see what 2020 brings (which llooks lile a much more significant upgrade on many front!).

If I did not already have a 65C6P I was very happy with, I'd jump on a C9, though. It looks like a significant step forward from the C8...
You can always play the waiting game. I think a 65" C9 will be in my future around June/July depending on what I see in the deals thread. I've been wanting to upgrade for awhile from my 2011 plasma. Having 3 kids under 3 and purchasing a home that's required more additional work such as new windows has delayed my upgrade. In that time, OLED has dropped enough in price I can justify jumping on that bandwagon now.
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post #13 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 04:33 PM
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I ise my C6 for 3D 2-3 times per year (and compelling new releases are becoming harder and harder to come by).

I use it for HDR nightly, and am not a huge sports buff, but watch more live-action sports on my WOLED tjan 3D...

So I'll have no refrets ditching 3D for a larger screen, better/easier HDR, and improved motion performance (especially if the BFI also improves near-black uniformity, as is now proven).

Of course, for a much poorer panel in a continuing near-black-uniformity panel lottery, none of those improvements woud be worth the cost, so I'll probably pay up for return rights and be certain what I'm getting before I ditch the 65C6P.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love good 3D content on my WOLED, I'm just accepting of reality and you can only watch the same 3D movies so many times before it gets kind of old...

HDR has a much bigger impact on our everyday viewing that 3D ever did.
How many 3D movies do you have? I have somewhere around 300...way more $$$$ invested in 3D discs than I have in my 65C6p and 65UF8500 combined.

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post #14 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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You can always play the waiting game. I think a 65" C9 will be in my future around June/July depending on what I see in the deals thread. I've been wanting to upgrade for awhile from my 2011 plasma. Having 3 kids under 3 and purchasing a home that's required more additional work such as new windows has delayed my upgrade. In that time, OLED has dropped enough in price I can justify jumping on that bandwagon now.
The 65C9 should make for a fantastic first WOLED. Coming from plasma, it will absolutely blow your socks off (except in the department of motion performance, and possibly also near-black uniformity).
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post #15 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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How many 3D movies do you have? I have somewhere around 300...way more $$$$ invested in 3D discs than I have in my 65C6p and 65UF8500 combined.
At least 10, fewer than 20. I only started getting into 3D after getting my 65C6P WOLED. On my LG 55LW5600 IPS LED/LCD, it was not a worthwhile experience...
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At least 10, fewer than 20. I only started getting into 3D after getting my 65C6P WOLED. On my LG 55LW5600 IPS LED/LCD, it was not a worthwhile experience...
Ah, not very many. Yes I can see where it's not a big consideration for you...

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post #17 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 11:00 PM
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Yup, already have the bigger screen down pat. Will keep my nearly 300 3Ds and the associated TV until Armageddon.
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post #18 of 56 Old 01-07-2019, 06:22 AM
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Is fafrd trying to play spoilsport for prospective 2019 buyers with this thread? People who are excited to get a '19 oled, trying to ruin their excitement?
Personally though, I believe top emission will be a bigger deal than software based improvements like 120hz BFI we are seeing this year. Panel level hardware improvements are much more vital to PQ. 120hz BFI will lead to lesser MPRT, but top emission would be a bigger game changer. Top emission would enable a higher aperture ratio so the panel peak luminance will go upward of 1000 nit , not to mention top emission will also help BFI mode.

More advancements to watch out in the future will be when lg shifts all production to their 10.5G fab, which should be 2021. Once they do that, you're going to see more panel level hardware improvements coming in.
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
The only drawback is that it is a major change so heir is increased risk of bleeding-edge production problems (think the possibility of Vignetting Round II )
But is there more hope for better near black uniformity,minus early production hiccups, with this tech?

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Is fafrd trying to play spoilsport for prospective 2019 buyers with this thread? People who are excited to get a '19 oled, trying to ruin their excitement?
Personally though, I believe top emission will be a bigger deal than software based improvements like 120hz BFI we are seeing this year. Panel level hardware improvements are much more vital to PQ. 120hz BFI will lead to lesser MPRT, but top emission would be a bigger game changer. Top emission would enable a higher aperture ratio so the panel peak luminance will go upward of 1000 nit , not to mention top emission will also help BFI mode.

More advancements to watch out in the future will be when lg shifts all production to their 10.5G fab, which should be 2021. Once they do that, you're going to see more panel level hardware improvements coming in.
Can't ruin it. Heck, even I'm excited to see the 8K Oleds roll out. Not that I would want one as long as me way superior 3D tv's are still alive. But it's still interesting to see the advancements in mono vision stuff and share in the excitement of those poor unfortunate souls who can never attain a stereo vision tv.


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post #21 of 56 Old 01-07-2019, 08:39 AM
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post #22 of 56 Old 01-07-2019, 02:31 PM
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The 65C9 should make for a fantastic first WOLED. Coming from plasma, it will absolutely blow your socks off (except in the department of motion performance, and possibly also near-black uniformity).
Yes, but my perennial question is "Can we expect the C9 to 'handle' broadcast material (that we will be stuck with for a loooong time to come) of 720p/1080i ANY better than the C8 ? Because the C8 and virtually all 4K units STILL do a relatively lousy job of scaling or up converting 2k broadcast material.
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I have not followed any discussions in the OLED technology thread, so please forgive my ignorance. I have just noticed mentions of top emission when looking at @fafrd 's comments on the LG 88" OLED and possibilities for 2020. I've pretty much ignored OLED because my bright room for TV watching needs a display with a lot of brightness, even though I fully appreciate perfect blacks. Is top emission likely to enable a 1000 nit 88" OLED TV? If so, I would hold off on the 85" Sammy that I was planning for later this year to see what LG does.

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post #24 of 56 Old 01-07-2019, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
At this point, I'd say it's a near-certainty that in 2020 we'll see 65", 75/77", and 88" 8K WOLEDs based on too-emission technology (and a new IGZO bsckplane): http://www.oled-info.com/lg-display...oleds-ces-2019
You better be right (JK) - I got my panties in a twist thinking about getting a new Top Emission OLED next year
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post #25 of 56 Old 01-07-2019, 03:44 PM
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I really hope there will be top emission panels made with 4k resolution, whether 55" size or larger since a native 8k panel is no good if you're someone like me where the primary video source is an HTPC, especially since I'm eyeing using 120Hz (or greater!) combined with variable refresh rate as well (not to mention the possibility of black frame insertion).


EDIT: Ok technically you can achieve the same result on an 8k panel, but that requires the ability to display 4k upscaled to 8k with nearest neighbor scaling (that is, simply doubling the pixels on both axis) - this can be achieved either by the TV doing this or by having a PC that supports 8k output as well as software that can do such nearest neighbor integer scaling, but using a PC would also mean it'd have to be able to do 8k and 120Hz at the same time which might not even be possible for HDMI 2.1 nor the TV in question.

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post #26 of 56 Old 01-07-2019, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Is fafrd trying to play spoilsport for prospective 2019 buyers with this thread? People who are excited to get a '19 oled, trying to ruin their excitement?
Personally though, I believe top emission will be a bigger deal than software based improvements like 120hz BFI we are seeing this year. Panel level hardware improvements are much more vital to PQ. 120hz BFI will lead to lesser MPRT, but top emission would be a bigger game changer. Top emission would enable a higher aperture ratio so the panel peak luminance will go upward of 1000 nit , not to mention top emission will also help BFI mode.

More advancements to watch out in the future will be when lg shifts all production to their 10.5G fab, which should be 2021. Once they do that, you're going to see more panel level hardware improvements coming in.
First, the 2019 WOLEDs are not merely a 'software improvement' of the 2018 WOLEDs - going from a 120 Hz refresh rate to 240Hz Effective Refresh Rate required changes to the backplane. In addition, the subpixel design has changed to further reinforce red (the 'Phillips' panel). The 2018 WOLEDs will never be able to support 120Hz BFI because they lack the hardware to do so.

Second, in terms of top-emission, what we know for certain is that Top Emission will result in an increased aperature ratio be 200-300% and this is certain to mean 3-4 times the lifetime and burn-in immunity of the 2018 WOLEDs (at similar brightness levels).

The second thing we know for certain is that the IGZO backplane is going to change to support top-emission and a significant amount of space will be freed up to support larger transistors and communication lines (Data, Row Select).

How that freed-up space will be used is anyone's guess at this stage, but it's a pretty safe bet that at least on 8K panels, it will be used to double the refresh speed to the 120Hz Native / 240Hz Effective Refresh Rates that the 4K WOLEDs are delivering this year.

Larger drive transistors may also be used to increase peak brightness, but this will also increase power consumption, and we don't know whether LG is already close to the limits of power consumption globally in terms of total power draw or locally in tems of heat generation.

So it is unclear whether top-emission will result in increased peak output or whether that will need to wait for breakthroughs in increasing EQE (Electro-Quantum-Efficiency).

Top emission does not directly help in BFI mode, but if the space freed-up by top-emission allows LGD to inrease the 4K IGZO backplane speed from 240Hz Effective Refresh to 240Hz Native Refresh, 120Hz BFI of essentially any % between 0.5% and 99.5% (in 0.5% / single-line increments) could be supported (with proper hardware and software controls).
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post #27 of 56 Old 01-07-2019, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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But is there more hope for better near black uniformity,minus early production hiccups, with this tech?
There is no change to the WOLED stack or processing steps, from what we understand, so no real reason to expect changes on that front.

Top-Emission requires punching holes (vias) through the WOLED Layer, compared to Bottom Emission which does not (continuous uninterrupted sheet of WOLED), so this is a possible source of worse uniformity, but I suspect not significant and more likely to impact yield rather that uniformity.

It's now proven that 50% BFI improves near-black uniformity of WOLEDs by >50%, so the 50%BFI@120Hz should deliver less than half the near-black nonuniformity of an OLED without BFI (2017) and if Top Emission results in 4K WOLEDs supporting 67% or 75% BFI@120Hz, that could deliver a further 34-50% improvement in near-black uniformity...
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First, the 2019 WOLEDs are not merely a 'software improvement' of the 2018 WOLEDs - going from a 120 Hz refresh rate to 240Hz Effective Refresh Rate required changes to the backplane. In addition, the subpixel design has changed to further reinforce red (the 'Phillips' panel). The 2018 WOLEDs will never be able to support 120Hz BFI because they lack the hardware to do so.
Where are you getting that there are subpixel size changes this year? Philips was ordering custom panels from lg display. So you mean the all 2019 oled panels are going to look like the pixel structure of the 2018 philips oled?
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post #29 of 56 Old 01-07-2019, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Where are you getting that there are subpixel size changes this year?
From the OLED Technology Advancements Thread: http://01966633.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57384632

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Philips was ordering custom panels from lg display.
LGD does not 'do' custom panels. Philips was a late 2018 launch and they elected to use the '2019' panels early. LGD was more than happy to oblige as this allowed them to get production ramped up that much earlier...

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So you mean the all 2019 oled panels are going to look like the pixel structure of the 2018 philips oled?
From what we understand, yes.

And for all we know, Philips may do a late launch with a Top Emission panel late this year .
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There is no change to the WOLED stack or processing steps, from what we understand, so no real reason to expect changes on that front.

Top-Emission requires punching holes (vias) through the WOLED Layer, compared to Bottom Emission which does not (continuous uninterrupted sheet of WOLED), so this is a possible source of worse uniformity, but I suspect not significant and more likely to impact yield rather that uniformity.

It's now proven that 50% BFI improves near-black uniformity of WOLEDs by >50%, so the 50%BFI@120Hz should deliver less than half the near-black nonuniformity of an OLED without BFI (2017) and if Top Emission results in 4K WOLEDs supporting 67% or 75% BFI@120Hz, that could deliver a further 34-50% improvement in near-black uniformity...
Thank you for the information. I’ll keep waiting and hoping for improvements.

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