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post #31 of 118 Old 03-30-2015, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by kc27 View Post
I am in Milwaukee WI - zip 53172. All of the local stations are north of my home, the furthest is 15 miles away. I purchased a Channel Master SMARTenna 35/50 (model CM3000HD) that I would prefer to install in the attic. The house is a one and a half story home with aluminum siding, and some foil backed insulation in the attic (the attic is more like an upstairs crawl space). For the most part reception with the antenna in the attic is great - but I did get some pixelization on the local NBC affiliate. So now I am considering mounting the antenna outdoors.

A diagram of the north facing of the house is at clemke[dot]com/misc/house_wiring_2.gif The antenna can be mounted to the siding with a wall mount, or I have a J mast that I can attach to the house. I was considering mounting the J mast at the peak of the roof. If I do that, how do I route the ground wire from the mast? Everything I have read says that it should be a direct route the grounding rod. A direct route from the peak of the roof will put the grounding cable right in the center of the upper window. Could I take both the ground wire and the coax over to the right, then down parallel with the electric service conduit and the cable and dsl cables?

If it has to be a straight line down to the grounding rod, I suppose I could attach the antenna using the wall mount to the left of the upper window, and then bring the ground wire (and coax) down in a straight line. If I have to mount it to the wall, however, I'd rather mount it to the right of the window, together with the other wires to keep things looking neater. This however would not solve the direct path straight down for the ground wire, there would still a small bit of routing. Also, mounting to the left or right of the upper window does not put the antenna at the highest point of the house. The lower height of mounting on the wall to the side of the window vs mounting on the J mast at the peak, may not matter, however, because I have tested with the antenna laying in front of the upstairs window, and the reception is great.

Any advice would be appreciated. I'd prefer to just keep the antenna in the attic, so if you've got ideas on how to make that work with an aluminum sided home, I'd appreciate the help. If attic mounting is not going to be a viable solution, then any advice you can share on the exterior mounting and ground wire routing would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your time.
South Milwaukee? Call Lancer TV.

The foil faced insulation and aluminum siding isn't helping your signal.

The main reason I would be hesitant to mount the antenna outside is because of lightning and yes, I know millions of antennas have been mounted this way, just not on my house.

If you do mount one outside, just make sure the ground wire goes straight into the ground.
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post #32 of 118 Old 03-31-2015, 03:46 AM
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Threads merged. Please use existing threads when possible.

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post #33 of 118 Old 03-31-2015, 07:57 AM
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How do people route ground wires? Always in a straight line, or is there an acceptable amount of deviation from a straight line?
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post #34 of 118 Old 03-31-2015, 05:07 PM
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Grounding problem need some ideas..
Newbie to the forum .. I live on the Cumberland Plateau of Tennessee country living... Problem here on the Plateau it's " ROCK" I spent about 5 hours this afternoon and 60 attempts later still no luck I can only get the ground rod down 35 inches and it hits solid rock.. And being a used home built in 2005 they extended a concert slab ( patio ) over the ground from what I can figure out.. looks like 4-5 inch metal pipe.. runs about 250 + feet Just a guess the pipe is PVC that's buried over to the power pole then metal and up the pole for termination the ground wire for home is some what hidden behind the metal pipe.. looks like #4 -- #6 and the way they did this leaves only 10--15 inches exposed and tucked behind the bend of the metal pipe which had 2 clamps upper lower the ground wire is buried behind the clamps no clear direct route for a ground wire from roof area.
My question is with only 25- 30 inches of ground rod.. that's after digging a pit and burring the termination on the rod in the ground and covering it so I can mower over it then digging another trench for ground wire running up to TV antenna mast Trench from rod to foundation will be 15--18 feet.. approximately.
Any feed back would be greatly appreciated..
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post #35 of 118 Old 04-23-2015, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by kc27 View Post
How do people route ground wires? Always in a straight line, or is there an acceptable amount of deviation from a straight line?

Any ideas on this?
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post #36 of 118 Old 04-23-2015, 07:51 PM
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The code book says something like "as straight a line as practical" or something like that. You really need to just look it up. Section 810.21 IIRC. You're on your own to interpret how much might be too much.

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post #37 of 118 Old 06-13-2015, 03:20 PM
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OTA Antenna grounding questions

I'm placing an antenna on the opposite side of the house were the grounding rod is located. Reason being its the only place were I have a clear view of the broadcast signals. Bonding the two rods the conventional way would be a difficult 200 foot run.

What I'm thinking of doing, but not sure if its up to code (or safe) is to drive in a second ground rod directly below the antenna then bond the two rods using the interior copper water pipes. My water comes from a 600' deep well using a submersible pump drilled in the mid 1970s so I'm guessing no plastic outside pipes. The well is about 24 feet from the house

The inside water pipe is about 18" from the outside wall and about 24" from my oil burner. Oil tank is better than 25 feet away.

Is this a good idea or am I nuts?
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post #38 of 118 Old 06-13-2015, 04:40 PM
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The inside water pipe makes an excellent ground as long as there are no plastic repair sections between where you connect to it and where it enters the building, but it no longer satisfies the electrical code.

Starting in either 2002 or 2005, the code was changed to say that cold water pipes can be used to satisfy antenna grounding requirements as long as the connection is made within five feet of the point at which it enters the building. There was an exception made for commercial buildings saying that the cold water pipe can be used anywhere provided it is substantially exposed and professionally maintained. The reason for taking the cold water pipe connection off the approved grounding path list is that its "integrity" cannot be readily assured.

Prior to small dish satellite, most of us "professionals" didn't give two hoots about meeting the NEC grounding requirements, but once DBS satellite came into being, the service providers mandated it, for their own reasons, one of which was surely so as to inoculate themselves from being blamed for anything that went wrong when a system was not grounded properly.

If you are grounding for your own safety, and if you know for sure that the copper water pipe is intact, then your fire and shock safety can be assured by grounding to it.

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post #39 of 118 Old 06-13-2015, 07:14 PM
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Thanks for your response Mike.

I was just talking to my neighbor who told me the previous owners had some problem with the well and had placed plastic piping between the well and the house. So I guess I'm out a luck using the cold water lines.
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post #40 of 118 Old 06-13-2015, 07:43 PM
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Incorrect.... I think. There is no requirement that cold water pipes be continuously metallic from the house to the well. If the cold water pipe is "bonded" to the ground electrode system, then continuous copper water pipe from that ground electrode connection point to your antenna mast or coax ground connection point provides a robust ground path that any and all electrons would be honored to travel upon.
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post #41 of 118 Old 06-14-2015, 05:49 AM
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That's good news.

How do I test if the cold water pipes are bonded to the system?
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post #42 of 118 Old 06-14-2015, 10:07 AM
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Please search for existing threads before starting a new one. There's a whole antenna grounding thread in the sticky notes. Moving thread.

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post #43 of 118 Old 06-14-2015, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rons2 View Post
... How do I test if the cold water pipes are bonded to the system?
I don't think there is a practical or economical way to test it. Back a decade ago, when this topic was more intensively discussed, electricians said that the equipment used to actually measure the values of earth ground paths was very expensive and required expertise to use.

If you are lucky, you can see a huge ground wire attached to the water pipe where it enters your house, but if the attachment was made underground, your best bet might be to just ask a local electrician if water pipes that come from wells are ordinarily bonded to ground in your market. Heck, even if it isn't, it will still be a very good ground, just not technically code compliant.
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post #44 of 118 Old 06-14-2015, 02:48 PM
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Sorry DrDon, I thought by doing so would be considered hijacking a thread.

Thanks Mike
As it turned out my wife suggested that it would be easier if I just placed the antenna in the attic and not worry about grounding. Since the coax was already there all I had to do was remove the antenna from the outside and mount it inside.

When the antenna was outside I was able to get 5 channels. Much to my surprise I was able to get 12 channels in the attic (two of the signals drops and the image becomes pixelated).

I pointed the antenna same direction, go figure?

BTW its a RCA752R (Yagi type)
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post #45 of 118 Old 06-14-2015, 04:59 PM
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I just moved the antenna on my own rooftop yesterday and didn't worry about grounding it. You'll get better reception on your rooftop.
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post #46 of 118 Old 06-14-2015, 05:31 PM
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That's what I thought too.

Right now the antenna is 5' lower and to the right. Maybe there was some interference when it was mounted outside that I was unaware of.

According to antennapoint.com I should only get 8 channels. The two that I'm getting a bad signal from is 80 miles away. With 10 channels I figure I'm ahead of the game.

Thanks again for your help Mike.
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post #47 of 118 Old 08-16-2015, 05:07 PM
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grounding complications

[QUOTE=AntAltMike;35002633]The inside water pipe makes an excellent ground as long as there are no plastic repair sections between where you connect to it and where it enters the building.
But it no longer satisfies the electrical code. Starting in either 2002 or 2005, the code was changed to say that cold water pipes can be used to satisfy antenna grounding requirements as long as the connection is made within five feet of the point at which it enters the building.

Installing a rooftop antenna next weekend so I can cancel Dish. Using the Antennacraft chimney mount (chimney is no longer in use). The problem is that this would be about a 50-60' run to ground the mast to my electrical svc ground rod. My electric svc panel ground has a second ground wire attached to my cold water pipe right where it enters the floor next to my water meter. This water pipe would be a very short run from the antenna mast, but being on the basement floor it doesn't meet the five feet quote I pasted above.

I'd be ok with running the ground to my main electrical svc ground, but I can't find aluminum 8awg or copper clad 17awg in anything over 25'. Pure copper would cost me a fortune!

Any suggestions?
Also, what is the preferred type of clamp to attach my ground wire to my mast? The mast is just 2 sections of RCA antenna mast (painted pipe) that I purchased at Menards.
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post #48 of 118 Old 08-16-2015, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Installing a rooftop antenna ...
I'd be ok with running the ground to my main electrical svc ground, but I can't find aluminum 8awg or copper clad 17awg in anything over 25'. Pure copper would cost me a fortune!

Any suggestions?
Also, what is the preferred type of clamp to attach my ground wire to my mast? The mast is just 2 sections of RCA antenna mast (painted pipe) that I purchased at Menards.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire...-204812522-_-N

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post #49 of 118 Old 08-16-2015, 06:51 PM
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Thanks Olyteddy. So stranded insulated is ok?
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post #50 of 118 Old 08-16-2015, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahoe77 View Post
Thanks Olyteddy. So stranded insulated is ok?
Not an electrician but the 'Great and Powerful GOOGLE' says:

Quote:
250.62 Grounding Electrode Conductor Material. The grounding electrode conductor shall be of copper, aluminum, or copper-clad aluminum. The material selected shall be resistant to any corrosive condition existing at the installation or shall be protected against corrosion. The conductor shall be solid or stranded, insulated, covered, or bare.
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post #51 of 118 Old 08-17-2015, 02:48 AM
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There is no legal requirement that masts be grounded according to the (Edit/add)Model NEC code, and the reports of insurance collection complications are always undocumented and unreferenced . (Note: when a state or jurisdiction substantially adopts the NEC, it also creates and enacts it own enforcement regulation. Technically, whenever someone cuts a lug off a three prong plug or runs an extension cord under a rug, they are usually violating a provision of a state ordinance, and that would apply to failure to meet the letter(s) of their enacted mast grounding code. The next time someone reports enforcement will be the first, putting them one up on the local mattress tag police. - AAM)

If I wanted the mast grounded economically to get me whatever safety befits that grounding is supposed to yield, I'd ground it with the largest ground wire I could afford, surely not to exceed 6 gauge, taking the shortest, straightest, most vertical path to an earth grounded metal structure that was metallically connected to the home grounding system or electrode.

In your situation, I'd just connect the mast to the cold water pipe with anything, even a strand of 14 gauge solid that is in the thermoplastic shielded cable, sometimes called by the popular brand name"Romex", that you might have lying around.

I don't have the wherewithal to update my knowledge of the current wrinkles of the 2014 edition of the code, but last I knew, or sort of knew, there were some fuzzy standards for shortness and straightness of the initial length of mast grounding conductor that goes from the mast to some actually part of the ground electrode system, and last I knew, even a 6 gauge wire from the mast to your electrical service panel did not meet the letter of that requirement if it was 60 feet laterally away, so I see little point in spending much time and money meeting one or two of the NEC specifications when you know you are not going to meet all of them.

The code says to attach to the mast, not to the mast bracket, and grounding wire attachment is normally only permitted directly to screws that are used for no other purpose, but I am always satisfied to simply wrap the ground wire around a bracket screw or bolt that attaches the mast to the house or other exterior structure. If you do that, you should scrape some paint off the mast where it contacts the bracket. and probably smear grease on that surface so that it doesn't rust up.

You also are supposed to ground the outer conductor of the coax using an inexpensive "grounding block" at a point as near as possible to the point where it penetrates the house. It can be located inside or outside, but there is a strong consensus among lay installers that it is better to locate it outside.

Last edited by AntAltMike; 02-29-2016 at 09:55 AM.
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post #52 of 118 Old 08-17-2015, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post
There is no legal requirement that masts be grounded according to code, and the reports of insurance collection complications are always undocumented and unreferenced .

If I wanted the mast grounded economically to get me whatever safety befits that grounding is supposed to yield, I'd ground it with the largest ground wire I could afford, surely not to exceed 6 gauge, taking the shortest, straightest, most vertical path to an earth grounded metal structure that was metallically connected to the home grounding system or electrode.

In your situation, I'd just connect the mast to the cold water pipe with anything, even a strand of 14 gauge solid that is in the thermoplastic shielded cable, sometimes called by the popular brand name"Romex", that you might have lying around.

I don't have the wherewithal to update my knowledge of the current wrinkles of the 2014 edition of the code, but last I knew, or sort of knew, there were some fuzzy standards for shortness and straightness of the initial length of mast grounding conductor that goes from the mast to some actually part of the ground electrode system, and last I knew, even a 6 gauge wire from the mast to your electrical service panel did not meet the letter of that requirement if it was 60 feet laterally away, so I see little point in spending much time and money meeting one or two of the NEC specifications when you know you are not going to meet all of them.

The code says to attach to the mast, not to the mast bracket, and grounding wire attachment is normally only permitted directly to screws that are used for no other purpose, but I am always satisfied to simply wrap the ground wire around a bracket screw or bolt that attaches the mast to the house or other exterior structure. If you do that, you should scrape some paint off the mast where it contacts the bracket. and probably smear grease on that surface so that it doesn't rust up.

You also are supposed to ground the outer conductor of the coax using an inexpensive "grounding block" at a point as near as possible to the point where it penetrates the house. It can be located inside or outside, but there is a strong consensus among lay installers that it is better to locate it outside.
Thank you AntAltMike!
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post #53 of 118 Old 09-21-2015, 01:08 AM
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I plan to install a Clearstream 4V HDTV antenna outdoors on my one-story, metal-roofed, ranch-style home. My home is equipped with a lightning protection system (aka lightning rods), and I am looking to mount the antenna mast on the side of the building, just under the apex of the roof. My questions are as follows:

1. As the antenna will be installed in close proximity to one of the lightning rods, will that increase or decrease the likelihood that the antenna will be struck by lightning? I anticipate the height of the antenna mast may surpass that of the lightning rod by around 6 inches.

2. Will the proximity of the antenna to the lightning rod have any significant effect on the TV signal (noise, interference, etc.)?

3. Assuming there is a need to ground my antenna, can/should I splice the 10-gauge ground wire from the antenna mast to the (much thicker) braided wire cable that grounds the lightning rods? If so, should I connect closer to the antenna or closer to the grounding rod?

4. Assuming there is a need to ground the coaxial cable connected to the antenna, can/should that be grounded to the same grounding rod to which the lightning rod is wired? I know that the coaxial grounding block should be placed where the cable enters the house, which in this case is a good 20 feet from the grounding rod. Would it be better for this grounding block to be wired to separate, much closer grounding rod, or would that cause a ground loop?
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post #54 of 118 Old 10-23-2015, 06:19 PM
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Grounding/interference

Hello guys, I am 35 miles north of Madison wi. I have a yagi on a 40 foot galvanized 2 inch pole that runs up the end of my house and extends above the peak. The pole fits over and is bolted to a solid steel post driven 3 ft into the ground. I am not worried about a lightning strike to the mast.

However, I do not have the shielding of the coax grounded and believe I am getting interference from a cell tower 1/2 mile away.
The channel 3 for madison wi broadcasts on digital 50 (+\- 700 MHz) puts out 600KW and is the most powerful from Madison. I have a CM7777 for the reception as I do not have line of sight.
On occasion, this channel will pixilate and drop out for a second or two. When it does this, the signal meter shows 80% then drops to 10 or 20% and drops off. When this symptom is prevalent I can put my fingers on the shielding part if the coax connector at a tv, sinking the shielding with my body the interference disappears and the signal is restored to 80%.
My coax run from the mast mounted amp to the power supply is uninterrupted.
Can I remove this assumed cell interference by running the coax through a grounding block sinked to the mast at the base?

I have read that in Europe there are filters that can cut out cell signals to digital tv especially with amplifiers because the cell signal gets amplified also.

Please don't holler at me for not grounding the shield in the first place because I had a C band dish in the old days and constantly battled corroded connections and tried to avoid that with a straight run from the antenna into the house.
Thanks in advance,
Lex

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post #55 of 118 Old 12-14-2015, 12:00 PM
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Hey guys:
I have a two story house approx 25 ft above ground, and my CM4228 and a hi VHF Yagi are mounted on an 8 ft galvanized mast, which sticks up above the roofline at least 4 ft. Mast is mounted to a stucco dormer on the roof, and is not currently grounded.

Had a fairly strong, windy storm last night (So Cal) and was concerned re the "lightning rod" on top of my house. I've read through this grounding thread, and have a couple Q's:

1. The coax enters my house on the opposite side of my breaker panel and presumably what I believe to be a grounding block from my cable co. (see pic below). The coax signal line enters the house in an area where there is a bunch of concrete, and no good area to ground. Any suggestions on where or how to ground, where my area is either stucco wall or hard concrete?

2. If I run a separate line to the grounding wire (on the other side of my house), do I need to split my signal wire, or do I attach the grounding wire to the mast itself? Should it be coax or different wire?

Thanks for any input,
Joel
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post #56 of 118 Old 12-17-2015, 01:08 PM
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4G/LTE Filter info...it it's ONLY 1/2-mile, you might want to try TWO in Series:
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post #57 of 118 Old 02-28-2016, 07:59 PM
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Is grounding the mast as well as coax important?

I'm having an installer come by to move my antenna from my attic to my roof in a few days. When they did the estimate, they said that they can run the existing coax in my attic through a roof vent and ground it with a grounding block to the ground from my main junction box in the basement (where the pre-amp's power inserter is anyway). I asked if the mast itself needs to be grounded as well (the guides I've read have you grounding both) and the installer told me no. They said it's state code in Minnesota that you only have to ground the coax and it doesn't need to be grounded outside and that grounding the coax grounds the whole system anyway.

Is this installer giving me the runaround or is only grounding the coax to my junction boxes ground wire adequate?
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post #58 of 118 Old 02-28-2016, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phane View Post
...the installer told me...it's state code in Minnesota that you only have to ground the coax and it doesn't need to be grounded outside and that grounding the coax grounds the whole system anyway.

Is this installer giving me the runaround or is only grounding the coax to my junction boxes ground wire adequate?
Beats me! The Model National Electrical Code, which forms the basis for nearly all state and local codes, is not a public document. It is a law that is owned by a private agency. I know that is nonsense, but that is the way that it is. I bought my last one in 2008 or 2011; I don't remember which. I think paid $60 for it, but the book I bought had black printing on a gray background and was so difficult to read that I gave up on it. We had found and posted a link to the 2014 revision over at DBSTalk, and while I don't know how I'd even find it, it could be disabled by now.

Basically, each state enacts a statute that says that its electrical code is now the 2011 or 2014 edition of the NEC, with the following exceptions:

I just googled for the Minnesota electrical code and here is what I found:

Status Code 403: Your Request Has Been Denied This Document Is Not Currently Available To You

Dear Fellow Citizen:

You have been denied permission to access this document at this time due to ongoing judicial proceedings in the following case: American Society for Testing and Materials ( ASTM ), National Fire Protection Association ( NFPA ), and American Society of Heating. Refrigerating, and Air-Conditioning Engineers ( ASHRAE ) v. Public.Resource.Org (Public Resource ), DCD 1:13-cv-01215, U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia [1]

Your access to this document, which is a law of the United States of America, has been temporarily disabled while we fight for your right to read and speak the laws by which we choose to govern ourselves as a democratic society.


So that tells me the world is still as nutty as it was the last time I checked.

It is possible that what your installer told you is accurate. Frankly, many people doubt the usefulness of grounding a mast that supports a an antenna. Supposedly, it drains off static electricity which otherwise makes it a more inviting target to lightning. Many physics professors disagree with that. We "professionals" only ground masts so that we will not be penalized for not grounding a mast when we have been paid to do so.

You probably can find out what your local code "requires" by calling your municipal inspector's office, but there typically is no enforcement of such a requirement and no penalty for non-compliance. You have a better chance of getting arrested by the mattress tag police.

You can also find he Model NEC in your public library. The sections you would be looking for are 810 and 820, but that won't tell you the whole story. You would then have to find the state statute adopting the NEC to see what exceptions they have placed on that adoption. States with lousy soil sometimes make rules that are more demanding, states with little lightning sometimes exempt certain model code requirements.

If you care, I'm sure your installer will ground it for you if you pay him to do so. I wouldn't bother... and I have installed over a thousand antennas in my lifetime.

Last edited by AntAltMike; 02-29-2016 at 10:29 AM.
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post #59 of 118 Old 02-29-2016, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post
I wouldn't bother... and I have installed over a thousand antennas in my lifetime.
Thanks! That's good enough for me.
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post #60 of 118 Old 02-29-2016, 07:17 AM
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In the future, please use existing threads instead of starting a new one.

Threads merged.
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