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post #1 of 42 Old 07-12-2018, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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DCI update on LED screens

For those who may be interested there are more details on their webpage.

http://www.dcimovies.com/
http://www.dcimovies.com/announcemen..._2108-0627.pdf

"The current Digital Cinema System Specification (DCSS) and Compliance Test Plan (CTP) were crafted with projection systems in mind. With the advent of direct view displays, the associated system architecture and performance characteristics differ from projection systems such that new specifications are necessary. This document broadly defines performance and security parameters that DCI intends to define for these types of displays in order to give manufacturers guidance while a complete set of requirements is developed. Parameters defined in this memo are tentative and subject to change."
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post #2 of 42 Old 07-20-2018, 04:23 PM
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Thanks for posting this EvLee! I wrote a summary of the memorandum here...
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post #3 of 42 Old 07-20-2018, 05:14 PM
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Didn't I see somewhere with an LED screen with speakers at the top and bottom, effectively locating the sound between the two? Is this a viable option if acoustic transparancy is gone?
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post #4 of 42 Old 07-20-2018, 07:22 PM
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500 nits? That's low.
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post #5 of 42 Old 07-20-2018, 08:16 PM
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I'm worried about the sound part. Looks like phantom center will be the norm? Sigh.
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post #6 of 42 Old 07-21-2018, 08:33 AM
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The sound quality wouldn't necessarily be a problem, there's a ton of technology to avoid "phantom center" (though I've experienced setups where an actual center was turn off and the phantom image was indistinguishable from the real center). I would think that it would be some version of L-C-C-R with a center above and below the screen. There is almost no limit to what technology can accomplish...think about HT receivers today vs. 15 years ago. (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, 7.4.4, Dirac, etc. on sub $1000 receivers)

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post #7 of 42 Old 07-21-2018, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
Didn't I see somewhere with an LED screen with speakers at the top and bottom, effectively locating the sound between the two? Is this a viable option if acoustic transparancy is gone?
Phantom center above and below works extremely well as I have used it in my own theater for years. Think of it as ATMOS center height channel idea without the physical center. This will not be a problem. What is a potential problem and poss. why they are going with only 500 nits is that with an emissive display of that size the theater cannot be totally dark otherwise your eyes would hurt too much. It will be weird to see other people in a dimly lit theater watching a giant TV essentially. Hopefully that will not be the case.
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post #8 of 42 Old 07-21-2018, 02:59 PM
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Does this move suggest that we may finally see Laser Phosphor Display (LPD) technology finally be commercialized as movie/Cinema tech? Since their panels are scalable to practically any size and resolution...it may be the tech that can most easily upscale a 4k or 1080 image from 8k-32k or higher. And maintain the inky blacks white cranking out the luminance. It would be worth it to see if PRYSM plans to chase this market with packages capable of upscaling or natively rendering 4k-to at least 16k right now.
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post #9 of 42 Old 07-21-2018, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post
The sound quality wouldn't necessarily be a problem, there's a ton of technology to avoid "phantom center" (though I've experienced setups where an actual center was turn off and the phantom image was indistinguishable from the real center). I would think that it would be some version of L-C-C-R with a center above and below the screen. There is almost no limit to what technology can accomplish...think about HT receivers today vs. 15 years ago. (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, 7.4.4, Dirac, etc. on sub $1000 receivers)

If we griped about $15 movie tickets...get ready for $40 movie tickets!
This is what DTS:X has promised in the past: able to map sound correctly depending on where we place the speakers. But this feature is not available in any receivers in the general consumer market. You can have a center speaker below the tv and 2 front height speakers above the tv, but DTS:X will not send dialogue to the 2 front height speakers to "lift" the center. IMO, only Yamaha does that, when in fact, every brand should do that.

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post #10 of 42 Old 07-21-2018, 07:16 PM
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Very glad to hear this. As of now current standards REALLY hold back direct view displays. Curious how quickly and widely cinema instals like this will spread? I say it will still be years before even 10% of screens in cinemas will be direct view.

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post #11 of 42 Old 07-21-2018, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
I'm worried about the sound part. Looks like phantom center will be the norm? Sigh.
The Left, Center, and Right are located above the screen. They are a 3-way JBL horn. There is also reflector horns located I think under the screen or above that use DSP to shift certain dialouge phase and frequency to sound as if its coming from the screen. Theres a great article in Widescreen Review about it and it sounds like its a pretty cool thing. Sounds like it works good. Heres a link to gear used on the JBL sound system with each Samsung screen instal.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...m#.W1PdwNhKiDU

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post #12 of 42 Old 07-22-2018, 07:47 AM
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Just a real minor concern. The "distance between pixels" thing isn't quite right phrasing. I saw this once cause confusion in a white paper ~25 years ago. It's the distance from the center of one pixel (or subpixel cluster) to the center of the next. The distance between pixels can refer to the gap between, or gutter, or any number of other terms involving inter-pixel spacing.


I know, I know....

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post #13 of 42 Old 07-22-2018, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Reddig View Post
Very glad to hear this. As of now current standards REALLY hold back direct view displays. Curious how quickly and widely cinema instals like this will spread? I say it will still be years before even 10% of screens in cinemas will be direct view.
Not to mention projector technology will also advance and in a totally darkened space is direct view really even an answer. it brings it's own set of problems.
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post #14 of 42 Old 07-22-2018, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Spewdom View Post
500 nits? That's low.
This is great!! Imagin that all movies will be graded to 500 nits, DCI P3 100%... most current and past HDR sets will handle the 500 nits and the colour spectrum won't be far off.

Why have the big production houses grade everything for cinema then have to turn around and grade for 4000 nit / bt.2020 that is nowhere in reach for anyone today let alone the average consumer in the near future.

Big win for the consumer!

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post #15 of 42 Old 07-23-2018, 01:43 AM
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These displays offer much brighter peak luminance and deeper blacks than any projection system can muster, leading to much higher dynamic range than is possible today
The one thing they won't have is that projection look and feel and that's what going to the movies or owning a projector is all about. It's not just about the size.
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post #16 of 42 Old 07-23-2018, 06:24 AM
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Trinnov surround processors used in commercial theaters and homes already can do speaker re-mapping so the fact the the screen is not acoustically transparent is not a deal breaker.

I live in an area where the combined population of the 3 closest counties is about 30,000. Our cinema doesn't have nor will probably never have Atmos. We sure as heck will never see screen like this - at least not in my lifetime !!

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post #17 of 42 Old 07-23-2018, 06:45 AM
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500 nits is ton for a commercial venue where most are what less than 60 ? As I've said before this is going to be the biggest wow in commercial presentation since I MAX and something we will all want to see. If you aren't in a city you will have to travel. I drove an hour forty five to Detroit yesterday to see Forbidden Planet at the DIA. Not many reasons for me to go to commercial theaters anymore.


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post #18 of 42 Old 07-23-2018, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Spewdom View Post
500 nits? That's low.
For a blacked out theater with a 50ft screen, 500 nits (cd/m^2) will be more than enough. And that's just the required peak to fit within the spec of the memorandum - theaters can go higher than that if they want, but DCI isn't offering guidance on that (yet).
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post #19 of 42 Old 07-23-2018, 09:40 AM
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This would be a dramatic step backward in theatrical sound.

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post #20 of 42 Old 07-23-2018, 10:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Spewdom View Post
500 nits? That's low.
For a huge screen in a completely blacked out theater room? No, it's very bright.

Current Dolby Vision theaters are only 100 nits and they look substantially better than 50 nits SDR theaters, according to most reviews. 500 nits is the white level too, the black level is supposedly really good and HDR in a completely black room can do wonders even with 5 times better dynamic range.

I look forward to seeing these displays in a cinema near me!
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I also agree that the use of phantom Atmos center channels can be probably nearly as good as acoustically transparent screens with the speakers directly behind them. But flat transducers making the entire screen into a speaker could do wonders too, even if it's only got enough frequency range for mid-range and up that is fine for dialogue placement.
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post #22 of 42 Old 07-23-2018, 02:59 PM
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Seems like there would be a delay issue with having two center channels, one above and one below the screen. The seats in the back of the theater might not be a problem but as you get closer to the screen, there would be a significant difference in distance between the top and bottom speakers to the listener potentially creating response issues wouldn't there?
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post #23 of 42 Old 07-23-2018, 09:17 PM
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i think its a good move. it's been a long time since I felt any of the local theaters could MATCH what i have at home, let alone be significantly better to justify paying 4x the price, and 'hanging out' with a bunch of rude strangers.

just on the basis of providing something you can't get at home, it's going to be a LONG while before i can afford, and physically move a 130" display with near perfect blacks into my house. i do like the effect of having the speakers behind the screen, but i really don't think it's something that can't be worked around in a commercial theater. i mean, i really don't feel that the audio is 'so amazing' for the majority of seating locations anyway. so i'm optimistic at least that this won't be something i'll even notice. a commercial theater with black levels better than i have at home though, is a monumental shift! i just hope it's not too bright, that could be a deal breaker for me

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post #24 of 42 Old 07-24-2018, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnification View Post
The one thing they won't have is that projection look and feel and that's what going to the movies or owning a projector is all about. It's not just about the size.
You mean washed out.
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post #25 of 42 Old 07-24-2018, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Thanks for posting this EvLee! I wrote a summary of the memorandum here...
Quote:
One critical difference between projection systems and direct-view displays is that the size of a projected image can vary without changing the resolution. With a direct-view display, the pixel pitch—that is, the distance between pixels—is fixed, which defines the size of a display at a given resolution.
Scott this is not true, the pitch is variable. As per example the Samsung Onyx roadmap includes a 3.0 mm pitch 4K CinemaLED. Yes, using the same pitch modules, more modules means more pixels. We saw this a lot in the past when modules by definition were not 16:9, resulting in non-HD resolutions. Of course in commercial LED Walls there now are Walls that offer swappable led layers, even with the ability to mix and match pitches in one display. This might be a route some will pursue. Keep everything the same except for the front LED layer.

The Current Samsung LED would not meet the contrast requirement as it does offer 500 n its peak, but 'only' 100000:1 on-off contrast ratio.
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post #26 of 42 Old 07-24-2018, 08:33 PM
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Scott this is not true, the pitch is variable. As per example the Samsung Onyx roadmap includes a 3.0 mm pitch 4K CinemaLED. Yes, using the same pitch modules, more modules means more pixels. We saw this a lot in the past when modules by definition were not 16:9, resulting in non-HD resolutions. Of course in commercial LED Walls there now are Walls that offer swappable led layers, even with the ability to mix and match pitches in one display. This might be a route some will pursue. Keep everything the same except for the front LED layer.

The Current Samsung LED would not meet the contrast requirement as it does offer 500 n its peak, but 'only' 100000:1 on-off contrast ratio.
but it's not like you can push a button, or turn a dial and in 30 seconds you've got a different aspect ratio, or screen size. with a direct-view system you're talking about physically changing the pixel structure vs optically. in a 'long term' view, i think it's interesting that you could in theory add modules to get a larger, higher resolution screen, but in practice, it's not logical to do this. you'd be replacing an entire wall of modules if you wanted a larger screen

that being said, i'm not sure under what condition a commercial theater would have to worry about this. this would be more of an issue with home viewers trying to run CIH or something.

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post #27 of 42 Old 07-25-2018, 02:05 AM
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The one thing they won't have is that projection look and feel and that's what going to the movies or owning a projector is all about. It's not just about the size.
Exactly making movies like giant TV may backfire big time.
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post #28 of 42 Old 07-25-2018, 06:24 AM
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You mean washed out.
Zing!

To his point though, I'm not sure what the "projection look and feel" is - I know that there's a certain look to film vs. digital, but projection itself? Is it the 48fps flicker? The muffled sound of projection film reels and bulb fans? Perhaps the dim/soft reflected image? Ambient light refraction? From a home theater perspective, the two most shocking differences between projection and a big screen TV are that the TV is much, much brighter, and the projected image is much, much larger. Now we get both in one!

I'm not going to play dumb, I think this is just the end of an era and people need time to adapt. Film and projection were great together, but that time is coming to a close. Aside from niche releases, film is dead as a distribution/"print" material, so what do we need projection for? Direct view technology at this scale has been available since the first LED jumbotron, it just lacked resolution and refinement. This is the convergence of the digital intermediate and the digital big screen TV, in theater format. I couldn't be happier! Well that's a lie - I would like to have my own MicroLED wall and DCP playback system.

Spoiler!
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post #29 of 42 Old 07-26-2018, 01:13 PM
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Exactly making movies like giant TV may backfire big time.
I don't think I've ever been particularly glued to any romantic notion of the image originating from a dinky window over my head and behind me. I go to the movies for the movie. Maybe there's something about it not just being a larger version of what I have at home that psychologically matters, but if so I think we'll get over it.

If your point is regarding a film vs. digital concept then you do have a point in that it's been pretty tough so far for displays to mimic the flash and physical pull-down that is achieved by film projectors. But digitally limiting the persistence to very short duration pulses (and/or bumping the native frame rate up to 120+ fps, hopefully someday 240) has long since proven to solve that from a motion discomfort standpoint.

I guess I'm not sure what would be lost.

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post #30 of 42 Old 07-26-2018, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I don't think I've ever been particularly glued to any romantic notion of the image originating from a dinky window over my head and behind me. I go to the movies for the movie. Maybe there's something about it not just being a larger version of what I have at home that psychologically matters, but if so I think we'll get over it.

If your point is regarding a film vs. digital concept then you do have a point in that it's been pretty tough so far for displays to mimic the flash and physical pull-down that is achieved by film projectors. But digitally limiting the persistence to very short duration pulses (and/or bumping the native frame rate up to 120+ fps, hopefully someday 240) has long since proven to solve that from a motion discomfort standpoint.

I guess I'm not sure what would be lost.
If it looks like a big tv why bother to go to a theater. It has to be a big step up from the home experience or people won't go.
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