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post #1 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Who else wants an 899?

3 way with 4-8" drivers and some mids with a SEOS 8... @Erich H @tuxedocivic Can you make it happen?
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post #2 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 10:07 AM
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Sounds like fun. I dont think the 893 sold very well though. It’s also hard to find mids that can handle that kind of sensitivity and be small enough to turn horizontally for a center channel. I’d be up for the challenge though.

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post #3 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 10:08 AM
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How would four 8's be better than the two 10's in a 1099? More power dissipation seems unlikely to be utilized. A little more cone area, but not as much as the difference between a 1099 and 1299.

If the pairs of 8's are vertical, you've got a longer distance between acoustical center of the pairs to the mid(s) and high, making crossover more awkward. Especially at the higher frequencies now involved, because the mid is presumably significantly smaller than the 8's.

If the pairs of 8's are horizontal, it's still no picnic. In pairs either way the pattern will narrow and lobe at higher frequencies. Yes, you can drop one of them off via low pass in the crossover, but then one alone has to have enough output until the midrange.

If the woofers are four 8's, what's the midrange? Two 4's? The trick is to match directivity at the handoff. The mid would then need to be about as wide as the 8" SEOS. 8" SEOS has a recommended lower frequency of 1kHz, but good luck finding a 1" driver for it that will handle near its rated power that low! Of course, you probably won't need a ton of power handling anyhow, but it would cripple the potential.

What you're describing with two 8's and a SEOS sounds closer to the midranges and SEOS of a 1299. Even then, those are dual 6" mids and a 12" SEOS. Heck, my 1899's use 12" drivers as *mids*!

I think the existing HTM-10 or 1099 would do a much better job than an 899, depending on the direction somebody wanted to go.

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post #4 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 10:42 AM
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The 893 didn't get ordered very often and we really don't know why. Maybe people were looking for bigger speakers when the site was still fairly new and maybe they'd do better now, I don't really know.

I did draw up a 'Maximus-8 which would be dual 8" woofers and a single 6" midrange under a SEOS-8, but it would be a little taller than the 893 was.

There was also a design started with a coaxial flanked by two 8" woofers, but I don't think the chosen parts matched up as good as we hoped and the project was put on hold.

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post #5 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
How would four 8's be better than the two 10's in a 1099? More power dissipation seems unlikely to be utilized. A little more cone area, but not as much as the difference between a 1099 and 1299.

If the pairs of 8's are vertical, you've got a longer distance between acoustical center of the pairs to the mid(s) and high, making crossover more awkward. Especially at the higher frequencies now involved, because the mid is presumably significantly smaller than the 8's.

If the pairs of 8's are horizontal, it's still no picnic. In pairs either way the pattern will narrow and lobe at higher frequencies. Yes, you can drop one of them off via low pass in the crossover, but then one alone has to have enough output until the midrange.

If the woofers are four 8's, what's the midrange? Two 4's? The trick is to match directivity at the handoff. The mid would then need to be about as wide as the 8" SEOS. 8" SEOS has a recommended lower frequency of 1kHz, but good luck finding a 1" driver for it that will handle near its rated power that low! Of course, you probably won't need a ton of power handling anyhow, but it would cripple the potential.

What you're describing with two 8's and a SEOS sounds closer to the midranges and SEOS of a 1299. Even then, those are dual 6" mids and a 12" SEOS. Heck, my 1899's use 12" drivers as *mids*!

I think the existing HTM-10 or 1099 would do a much better job than an 899, depending on the direction somebody wanted to go.
Well...selfishly...I just need a bit narrower witdth than the 1099 and 4-8" seemed to add efficiency in my mind...to get to the 99db mark. I also would really like to see another 893/horizontal center but with the 99db sensitivity. Also I'd like to mention how cool it'd be to have 4-8's in a tower or center with a SEOS and some 4" mids.


Ryan, if you'd like to entertain it, I'll supply the parts. I'd like to get @Erich H on board for his "custom" parts if needed.
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post #6 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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So... Erich replied at the same time. I think the "93" was the deterrent, but I'm just guessing. That's why I suggested 899. Yes I know 4 wide drivers isn't optimal, I was just throwing out ideas to get higher sensitivity. Maybe it could be @tuxedocivic first 3.5 way and be the same form factor.

Come'on Ryan make waves!


As for the 893. I'd order a set now, but I'd really rather have higher efficiency than response below 80hz
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post #7 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 10:52 AM
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I've been very happy with my 893s for going on 2 years now. I've had several forum members over and everyone is always impressed with what they hear.
These are quotes pulled directly from our HT Crawl thread about the 893s...

"THis was the first time I heard the 893's and they didn't let anyone down there so clear and kept up with the subs. I see no need for you to upgrade to anything else these brought a smile to my face."
"It's also the first time I've heard the 893s and they certainly didn't disappoint."
"Fantastic DIYSG setup that sounded fantastic."
"I was most excited about seeing and hearing your setup. And it went beyond what I had hoped for. Those 893 and nearfield UM18s are the real deal."
"Those DIY Soundgroup speakers sounded fantastic! I have heard the 1099's and I liked these more, and that's saying something because I think the 1099's are great."
"I loved the 893 speakers, and thought they both looked and sounded the part!"
"I admit that I wasn't excited to hear the 893s because I did not like the 1099s when I first heard them. That was outside with a concrete floor and a super basic Xo setup, so not a fair review. However, I loved the 893 in your room. I was starting to get a head cold by the time we made it to your place and my ears were getting clogged up and sensitive, and harsh speakers are my nemesis when this happens. Your 893 sounded good though and never sounded harsh, even to my sensitive ears."



I'm always a little bummed when people are looking for LCR recommendations and I can't point them to the 893s. I feel the form factor is great for people who want a 3-way yet don't want to go as big as a 1099. Plus the horizontal center option was a big plus.
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Jumping into DIY - My 893, Volt 6, and UM18(x4) build

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post #8 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 11:30 AM
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To get the speaker rating up to 99db, you really need a midrange(s) capable of doing that. That puts you around a 6" mid which then makes the center channel taller than the 893 and getting close to the height of a 1099.

A few years ago I asked Eminence to make some 12 ohm 5" midrange samples so that they could be wired together under one waveguide. The cost ended up being a bit too much to justify and the project got scrapped. I do have those samples here, but they never got used.

We could turn the Volt-6 or Volt-8 into a sealed back midrange/coaxial and stick that between two powerful 8" woofers. That would be a pretty easy thing for Eminence to make us. That's been discussed too, but not sure there's enough demand.

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post #9 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 12:12 PM
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a triple 6 with a volt 6 in the middle and two 6's on the outside would be interesting. No idea if it could be done lol. The name triple 6 or 666 sounds like a winner though haha.
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post #10 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 01:36 PM
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post #11 of 43 Old 01-11-2019, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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The fusion 8 towers are pretty close, no?
Then bring back the fusion 8 with the SEOS instead of the EOS...
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post #12 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 08:30 AM
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An 8” recipe the can be placed horizontally does keep popping back up between Erich and I. I still have the coaxial and woofers here we planned on using. I just didn’t get them sounding good. But that was only a couple weeks of play. The xx99 configuration has some distinct advantages over a coaxial setup that kept nagging at me too. If it’s sensitivity someone wants, they need to go big. Using 4 woofers would help but then it’s a niche speaker design that probably wouldn’t sell well. That’s if there was a mid that could keep up. Finding a proper mid was very tricky with all the xx99s because they’re so small.

We’ll certainly be thinking of how to make this happen for a long time. If we happen upon a way I’m sure it’ll get done. I personally love the 8” form factor.

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post #13 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
An 8” recipe the can be placed horizontally does keep popping back up between Erich and I. I still have the coaxial and woofers here we planned on using. I just didn’t get them sounding good. But that was only a couple weeks of play. The xx99 configuration has some distinct advantages over a coaxial setup that kept nagging at me too. If it’s sensitivity someone wants, they need to go big. Using 4 woofers would help but then it’s a niche speaker design that probably wouldn’t sell well. That’s if there was a mid that could keep up. Finding a proper mid was very tricky with all the xx99s because they’re so small.

We’ll certainly be thinking of how to make this happen for a long time. If we happen upon a way I’m sure it’ll get done. I personally love the 8” form factor.
Hey Tux,
Love your designs,I wanted 1099's but couldn't fit them.Wanted 893's with flatpacks,couldn't get them.I pestered Erich to put together what are probably the last set of 893's,and built the cabinets.

For awhile you were offering 8" trim rings.Do you have any left?
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post #14 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 10:10 AM
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Steve’s 893 sounded awesome I’ll agree with what he’s saying. Everyone that stopped by really liked his setup. It was so clear and played loud
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post #15 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
An 8” recipe the can be placed horizontally does keep popping back up between Erich and I. I still have the coaxial and woofers here we planned on using. I just didn’t get them sounding good. But that was only a couple weeks of play. The xx99 configuration has some distinct advantages over a coaxial setup that kept nagging at me too. If it’s sensitivity someone wants, they need to go big. Using 4 woofers would help but then it’s a niche speaker design that probably wouldn’t sell well. That’s if there was a mid that could keep up. Finding a proper mid was very tricky with all the xx99s because they’re so small.

We’ll certainly be thinking of how to make this happen for a long time. If we happen upon a way I’m sure it’ll get done. I personally love the 8” form factor.
Hey Tux,
Love your designs,I wanted 1099's but couldn't fit them.Wanted 893's with flatpacks,couldn't get them.I pestered Erich to put together what are probably the last set of 893's,and built the cabinets[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG].

For awhile you were offering 8" trim rings.Do you have any left?
Sorry I don’t. I made a bunch when i did mine until demand tapered and then stopped. I don’t have the material anymore either.

Glad you got the last kit!!

My youtube channel: Impulse Audio
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post #16 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 10:40 AM
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Steve’s 893 sounded awesome I’ll agree with what he’s saying. Everyone that stopped by really liked his setup. It was so clear and played loud
What a lot of people forget is that 93db is pretty solid sensitivity. In this forum we’re all so used to 99 or even higher that 93 sounds pathetic. There were also one or two goofed up builds when the speaker first launched and threads like that with bad first impressions really kill a product.
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post #17 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 12:24 PM
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A few thoughts,

When I think of the 99 series, I think of very high efficiency 3-ways that can run a horizontal center. Make a very bad error when I heard about an 8 inch version--figured they would take the 1099 and swap out the tens for the eights from the 88 Special. A nice form factor with dual 8's, the extra height (or width) would allow the 8's to have the ports under them in horizontal configuration. It would basically be an "898" (or 898.5) This would allow to cut the width of the horizontal 1099 center from 36.25" to around 30" and be lighter to boot. Alas, I was wrong on that idea! Still, it would of been cool for people that wanted the smallest 3-way center that was high efficiency and "match" the 1099 towers with a smaller width center to fit on more traditional TV stands.

On a side note Tux--really like your Youtube channel! Enjoyed your informative reviews of the "best of" for midwoofers and tweeters. Just wondering when you will mix them together, basically the Delta 10 and the DE250 compression driver on the SEOS 10 horn crossing over at 1,300 Hz? I have a pair of Fusion 10's--really love the speakers but an very curious about the DE250 you speak of. I know it works very well in the 88 Special (my center) and part of me ponders "matching" the compression drivers across my LCR. Hmmm....

As far as DIYSG goes, it seems that the HTMs have replaced the Fusion series if you want high efficiency 2-way speakers. If you want 8 inch, you have the Cobalts for now.
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post #18 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 12:49 PM
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(or 898.5)
What does the ".5" mean?

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post #19 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 12:54 PM
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What does the ".5" mean?
The 88 Special is listed as 98.5 dB efficiency 1w/1m with the two 8's. Technically, if you used those two 8's instead of 10's--it could be 98.5dB efficiency or... 898.5 The "99" with the 1099/1299/1899 meant 99dB 1w/1m of efficiency.

OCD? Yes...but there is always a bit of OCD in DIY or we won't be doing DIY!

I'm sure Tux would just call it the 898 and not quibble about the extra half dB.
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post #20 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 01:51 PM
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The point from tux that the efficiency at 93 is enough imo is right. Nobody here runs runs amps which would benefit the 99 part (ok, someone does use tube amps, I know many at klipsch forum do).

While I readily admit I have no design experience and dont fully understand all the tradeoffs of various tweeter models, I'll say this --

The brilliance of Diysoundgroup, beyond the selfless efforts of Erich and team, is the waveguides.

Except for buying an expensive JBL speaker, where else can you get them? Klipsch horns have excellent directivity...I own many, but none match the SEOS.

I would focus the site into iterations of those beauties. Floorstanders and monitors, even bookshelf speakers (true ones), if the design allows for it.

I havent heard a speaker I like more than the HTMs. I've heard most of DIYSG and many major manufacturers.

Few people, even on this site, really understand the value of those guides.

There are htm6 10 and 12.
I would add the 8, and then create floorstanding models of the 10s and 12s.

Htm6 (bookshelf), htm8, htm10, htm12
Fhtm1010 and fhtm1212.

1099s, 1299s, 1899s are glorious and specialized for 3 way or music lovers. Waveguides here too of course.

I would also make horizontal centers for each that solve the lobing problem like the 1099 did.

Those I would advertise beyond DIYSG to the general public....since almost nobody has access to good center channels without lobbing effects.

But then again, I've been known to offer my 2c in many places it wasn't asked.

But I know Erich listens, whether he agrees or not, and I like that part the most.

Option1 - build yourself
Option2 - Erichs team builds and offers finishing (some veneer options would blow people away)

Theres gold in these designs imo
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post #21 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 02:01 PM
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figured they would take the 1099 and swap out the tens for the eights from the 88 Special. A nice form factor with dual 8's, the extra height (or width) would allow the 8's to have the ports under them in horizontal configuration. It would basically be an "898" (or 898.5) This would allow to cut the width of the horizontal 1099 center from 36.25" to around 30" and be lighter to boot. Alas, I was wrong on that idea!
Tux and I did discuss using those higher efficiency woofers with the 893 and then use the rubber surround woofers with the SEOS-8 that was made for dome tweeters. After the front ports the cabinets would have been 31" tall.

The issues are finding midranges that can keep up with the woofers. If I remember correctly those 4" mids have about the highest sensitivity of any 4" you can get but aren't high enough to match Beta-8's. That's why I went to Eminence asking about another custom 8" woofer. The rubber surround model matched the closest and allowed for a small sealed cabinet, so we moved forward. Eminence has made me at least 25 different 8" woofer samples, seriously.

If there's interest in bringing the 893 back I can look into getting more of the 16 ohm 8" woofers made up. Or we can consider starting over with a slightly different design. If the end design could be 4 ohms, I probably have woofers here that can be used.


Just a side note, more 8" and smaller speaker models will be worked on soon. They just didn't get ordered very often when the site first started and I guess that was because people wanted bigger speakers. But it seems more people know about the site and have asked about smaller models. So they will be coming. Time, space, and funds are always the limiting factors due to how the site was initially set up.

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post #22 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post

There are htm6 10 and 12.
I would add the 8, and then create floorstanding models of the 10s and 12s.

Htm6 (bookshelf), htm8, htm10, htm12
Fhtm1010 and fhtm1212.

1099s, 1299s, 1899s are glorious and specialized for 3 way or music lovers. Waveguides here too of course.

I would also make horizontal centers for each that solve the lobing problem like the 1099 did.
That's pretty much what the plan is, it just takes some time to get it done.

After the 1099's and HTM's were done, the Fusions rarely got ordered. In 2018 there were about six Fusion-10's and 12's ordered.

My idea moving forward:

HTM's for 2-way home theater speakers. Current line and then a cheaper line.

99's for 3 way home theater speakers.

Volts for surrounds, sound bars, etc.

Fusions get redone using different parts and made into full range tower speakers.


And then some other designs thrown in that don't really fit in any of those categories. Like Quad-4, 88-Special, smaller speakers, etc.

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post #23 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 03:08 PM
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That's pretty much what the plan is, it just takes some time to get it done.

After the 1099's and HTM's were done, the Fusions rarely got ordered. In 2018 there were about six Fusion-10's and 12's ordered.

My idea moving forward:

HTM's for 2-way home theater speakers. Current line and then a cheaper line.

99's for 3 way home theater speakers.

Volts for surrounds, sound bars, etc.

Fusions get redone using different parts and made into full range tower speakers.


And then some other designs thrown in that don't really fit in any of those categories. Like Quad-4, 88-Special, smaller speakers, etc.
Excellent plans imo.

I wonder though if both 1099s 1299s and then fusions should all be built.

What if the 1099 became your standard floor model speaker, with an optionally taller cabinet such as a few that have been built here on AVS?

I love choice, but have a basic understanding of logistics and think paring it down to a floorstander and a monitor is enough and makes your work more productive.
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post #24 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 03:28 PM
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3 way with 4-8" drivers and some mids with a SEOS 8... @Erich H @tuxedocivic Can you make it happen?

What dome or ring tweeter would you suggest in the SEOS 8 to get the sensitivity you want?

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post #25 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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What dome or ring tweeter would you suggest in the SEOS 8 to get the sensitivity you want?
I'd rather have a compression driver.

I really liked the 893 size but didn't need the extension, which is why I was inquiring about the "899." I'd rather have the sensitivity. I created this thread mostly to see what interest there is while we wait on Erichs new stuff.
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post #26 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Tux and I did discuss using those higher efficiency woofers with the 893 and then use the rubber surround woofers with the SEOS-8 that was made for dome tweeters. After the front ports the cabinets would have been 31" tall.

The issues are finding midranges that can keep up with the woofers. If I remember correctly those 4" mids have about the highest sensitivity of any 4" you can get but aren't high enough to match Beta-8's. That's why I went to Eminence asking about another custom 8" woofer. The rubber surround model matched the closest and allowed for a small sealed cabinet, so we moved forward. Eminence has made me at least 25 different 8" woofer samples, seriously.

If there's interest in bringing the 893 back I can look into getting more of the 16 ohm 8" woofers made up. Or we can consider starting over with a slightly different design. If the end design could be 4 ohms, I probably have woofers here that can be used.


Just a side note, more 8" and smaller speaker models will be worked on soon. They just didn't get ordered very often when the site first started and I guess that was because people wanted bigger speakers. But it seems more people know about the site and have asked about smaller models. So they will be coming. Time, space, and funds are always the limiting factors due to how the site was initially set up.
I don't keep up with all the Receivers/AVRs, but shouldn't most of the decent ones handle 4 ohms these days? I have no idea.
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post #27 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 05:40 PM
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I think a lot of people have AVRs that can't handle 4 ohms, so it's always worried me going with smaller theater speakers that aren't 8 ohms.

I should correct myself on the Fusions. Hopefully they'll get redone into full range type speakers, but they might not all be towers. It would make sense for the 6" - 10" to be towers, but maybe the 12" and 15" could be the older 'monkey coffin' sized speakers. None of those have been started yet.

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post #28 of 43 Old 01-12-2019, 08:49 PM
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I personally like the idea of having an 8" 99 design for use in a living room setting. That's definitely something that I can see people choosing over the 1099 for this type of application considering the size difference. Especially where the center is concerned, and would be better suited to pair with smaller subs.

The only reason that I've decided to go with the 1099's is because I like the idea of pairing those with a set of 18" subs. Although, my wife is not fond of either of those ideas, and would probably be more understanding with an 8" model...and me just keeping my PB12 Plus. Lol

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post #29 of 43 Old 01-13-2019, 07:41 AM
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Well I just emailed Erich to see if I should look into this more. If anyone has suggestions for blistering high sensitivity mids I’m all ears. Might need to use a 6” mid but then the speaker will be taller especially as a center....

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post #30 of 43 Old 01-13-2019, 08:04 AM
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I want a 2199.
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