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post #1 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Should I upgrade to 18" subs? Or more amplifier power?

Hi all,

The house isn't falling down during heavy bass scenes, so I started revisiting my system. There is much I don't know about, maybe you can help?

My system:

Infinity 1262w's, 300rms, 1200 watts peak. Two each placed in a Full Marty Cabinet. NOT ENOUGH for me.

Below is a picture of my subs. Do I need to take out the two 12's and replace them with one 18"? Or do I need a bigger amplifier? Or would it be easier to replace the 1262w's with a better driver?

The two 12's are wired in Series/Parallel, a 4 ohm load. Each pair of subs are connected to the iNuke 3000 on it's own channel. Duel Channel Mono. The iNuke is pushing 880 Peak watts per side.

Doesn't that mean that each individual subwoofer is only receiving 440 watts peak? That would be a shame because I think each subwoofer can handle 1200 peak watts peak. Are my individual subwoofers only getting 1/3 of the power they could potentially handle?

The iNuke limiter lights up, but I just realized, maybe this is the limit of the iNuke, not necessarily the limit of my subs?

What is the best, easiest, cheapest way for me to enjoy more, better bass?

Also, it has been mentioned that the 1262w's are not considered a musical speaker, but a great movie sub. Is there an advantage to going with a better, "musical" subwoofer?
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post #2 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush Tempo View Post
Hi all,

The house isn't falling down during heavy bass scenes, so I started revisiting my system. There is much I don't know about, maybe you can help?

My system:

Infinity 1262w's, 300rms, 1200 watts peak. Two each placed in a Full Marty Cabinet. NOT ENOUGH for me.

Below is a picture of my subs. Do I need to take out the two 12's and replace them with one 18"? Or do I need a bigger amplifier? Or would it be easier to replace the 1262w's with a better driver?

The two 12's are wired in Series/Parallel, a 4 ohm load. Each pair of subs are connected to the iNuke 3000 on it's own channel. Duel Channel Mono. The iNuke is pushing 880 Peak watts per side.

Doesn't that mean that each individual subwoofer is only receiving 440 watts peak? That would be a shame because I think each subwoofer can handle 1200 peak watts peak. Are my individual subwoofers only getting 1/3 of the power they could potentially handle?

The iNuke limiter lights up, but I just realized, maybe this is the limit of the iNuke, not necessarily the limit of my subs?

What is the best, easiest, cheapest way for me to enjoy more, better bass?

Also, it has been mentioned that the 1262w's are not considered a musical speaker, but a great movie sub. Is there an advantage to going with a better, "musical" subwoofer?
If you want more powerful bass, make the move to 18" subs, preferably 4 if you can.
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post #3 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 08:30 AM
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Take off the limiter and see how loud it can go before it starts going bad. If it reaches what you want, then I don’t see any reason to upgrade.
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post #4 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
If you want more powerful bass, make the move to 18" subs, preferably 4 if you can.
+1. I went from dual sealed 12's to dual sealed 18's plus the 12's. Large drivers are THE way to go, improved bass spl in addition to great tactile response. 21's are great but 18's really hit the price/performance sweet spot. You will NOT regret stepping up to the big stuff.
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post #5 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 08:38 AM
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You didn't mention what size your room is, but I ditto the suggestion to move to 18's.

I recently installed 2 MartyCubes with SI HT-18 V1's in my 2500cu.ft. theater room built on a concrete slab, running them with 1000w each. I've had to turn my sub output all the way down to minimum in my AVP because it shakes the room, and the bedrooms above it. There's no way your 12's are going to play as low as a larger driver, and give you the room-shaking tactile experience you're looking for.
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post #6 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 10:08 AM
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I'll echo everyone else in that the move from 12's to 18's was a major one for me. I started with one 12" svs cylinder sub, 6 months later I grabbed another, and a few months after that I had a 3rd all in a 20x13 space ...was good but I knew it could be better.

I sold the 3 svs' and bought 4 of the 12" jbl cs1214's sealed in individual boxes. Was nice because I could move them around for better in room response but still not up to the DIY forum standard.

Then I decided to buy some 18's, it was what I've heard junkies say smoking crack for the 1st time was like, pure euphoria. And I've been chasing that high ever since with absolute delight.

Maybe theres a 12" driver that could be swapped out and give you what you're looking for, but for the money I think you may be better off with 18's. Good luck

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post #7 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the best bang for the buck 18" sub?

My theater is in my two car garage, so it's 24 x 24 x 9.
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post #8 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 12:29 PM
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Dayton UM18 :P
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post #9 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 12:54 PM
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.02 and more fundamental

that space is like close to 5K+ cubes and it is square too boot . .

you should be able to power 4 VBBS subs tuned to 15,
PA-460-8 @ 94.50 + shipping and probably in stock . .

cheaper by the 4 pack and building 4 cabs at the same time is synergistic wrt to economy of time
2 on each channel and if so

maybe start out with equidistant placement wrt MLP so they can be EQ'd 1 channel at a time. .

you're going to need REW anyway, so why not get that and

get an idea of what that room already does and might do if you played around with other placements

at least it's a baseline and you'll get the REW learning you will need

and you'll be able to see and appreciate the work and very noticeable improvement.

HTH
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post #10 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 01:14 PM
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You’ll get a bump in cone surface area trading dual 12’s for a single 18. 254 square inches vs 226. A um18 will handle around twice the amplifier power as those dual 12’s too. Should be able to pick up at least 3db’s per box by swapping the driver and increasing the power.
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post #11 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 01:17 PM
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If you go with 18's do you have space to put the 12's nearfield?
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post #12 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 02:28 PM
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I also wouldn’t get caught up with the peak ratings of your drivers. You can sustain 600 watts continuously per Marty box with your dual 12’s, and that is right about the limit your inuke 3000 can sustain driving 2 channels at 4 ohms. So you’re basically not leaving anything left on the table with your current setup. You can get closer to 1800-2000 watts on that inuke if you run it at 4 ohms bridged.
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post #13 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 03:45 PM
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might also consider the Fi Audio HT1 since you can get them 2 ohm. They are fairly new, I'm not sure if we've gotten any user feedback on them yet?
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post #14 of 27 Old 01-07-2019, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
you're going to need REW anyway, so why not get that and

get an idea of what that room already does and might do if you played around with other placements

at least it's a baseline and you'll get the REW learning you will need

and you'll be able to see and appreciate the work and very noticeable improvement.

HTH

This is what I have right now. The measurement is without any room correction, no audyssey or rew eq, or peq settings in iNuke. I have not measured a max spl, I have always measured around 85db. But I've seen the measurements jump up to 105db accidentally. I'm not sure how to get a max spl reading, turn my avr until REW is just under clipping? Is this a wise thing to do? I'm still learning...
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post #15 of 27 Old 01-08-2019, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush Tempo View Post
This is what I have right now. The measurement is without any room correction, no audyssey or rew eq, or peq settings in iNuke. I have not measured a max spl, I have always measured around 85db. But I've seen the measurements jump up to 105db accidentally. I'm not sure how to get a max spl reading, turn my avr until REW is just under clipping? Is this a wise thing to do? I'm still learning...
That is amazingly flat, your room is good... you got lucky.

MAX spl isn't necessary nor a good thing to do generally. If you want to though, first I'd recommend deactivating everything but the subs, and then modifying your UMIK-1 for the 130db mode, found here->
http://01966633.com/forum/155-d...-umik-1-a.html

For measurements you always use dbZ, especially if you measure below 100hz or above 7khz or desire an accurate SPL figure.

If your subs go beyond 130db or REW detects clipping/red max'ing, then you'll need a TermLab or SPL Lab solid-state SPL meter (either is good for 180db+).
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post #16 of 27 Old 01-08-2019, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
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That is amazingly flat, your room is good... you got lucky.
I didn't know that was considered a good measurement. So that's good to know I don't have to keep chasing a flatter line. I can make the null at 90 hz go away if I move my back sub, but the placement isn't convenient for me. The sub would be directly in front of the garage door.

So guess what, Amazon delivered "The Edge of Tomorrow" today. I popped it in to see what was so special about this 10hz thing... LOL I'd never seen the movie so didn't know what to expect. When the asteroid hit the earth, the drapes next to the sub blew completely open! It was so unexpected and shocking I didn't know what to think. I thought someone had opened the side door to the garage. It was as if a very stiff breeze came directly into the garage. I got up and looked but no one was there, the side door was closed. I replayed the opening scene again, and wow, the drapes blew open! I did it one more time just for the fun of it. I've never seen that before, ever. I didn't know that could happen.

So, I'm back to my original problem. The rest of the movie was just ho-hum. I'm not "feeling" the big explosions. I'm kind of wondering if I should make some near field, armchair loaded subs. Or as has been mentioned, replace the 12's with 18's, and maybe make 2 more Full Marty's and buy another iNuke 3000. But come on, that's some serious cash. $300 per sub? + another iNuke? $1500 plus wood... ugh...too much for me.


Since my theater is in my garage, I have a lot of tools hanging on peg boards. And I have extension ladders hanging from the ceiling, and just a bunch of stuff in general. I think it would be great if all of the peg board tools exploded off the peg board and onto the floor during an epic bomb blast scene. I need to think of a way of hooking something up that could do that.

R.
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post #17 of 27 Old 01-08-2019, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush Tempo View Post
I didn't know that was considered a good measurement. So that's good to know I don't have to keep chasing a flatter line. I can make the null at 90 hz go away if I move my back sub, but the placement isn't convenient for me. The sub would be directly in front of the garage door.



So guess what, Amazon delivered "The Edge of Tomorrow" today. I popped it in to see what was so special about this 10hz thing... LOL I'd never seen the movie so didn't know what to expect. When the asteroid hit the earth, the drapes next to the sub blew completely open! It was so unexpected and shocking I didn't know what to think. I thought someone had opened the side door to the garage. It was as if a very stiff breeze came directly into the garage. I got up and looked but no one there, the side door was closed. I replayed the opening scene again, and wow, the drapes blew open! I did it one more time just for the fun of it. I've never seen that before, ever. I didn't know that could happen.



So, I'm back to my original problem. The rest of the movie was just ho-hum. I'm not "feeling" the big explosions. I'm kind of wondering if I should make some near field, armchair loaded subs. Or as has been mentioned, replace the 12's with 18's, and maybe make 2 more Full Marty's and buy another iNuke 3000. But come on, that's some serious cash. $300 per sub? + another iNuke? $1500 plus wood... ugh...too much for me.





Since my theater is in my garage, I have a lot of tools hanging on peg boards. And I have extension ladders hanging from the ceiling, and just a bunch of stuff in general. I think it would be great if all of the peg board tools exploded off the peg board and onto the floor during an epic bomb blast scene. I need to think of a way of hooking something up that could do that.



R.

You need midbass for chest slam and explosions. VBSS subs with Dayton PA460’s in them would probably be the way to go. They are also very efficient so you’ll get plenty of SPL from whatever amp you use to power it.
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post #18 of 27 Old 01-08-2019, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush Tempo View Post
Hi all,

The house isn't falling down during heavy bass scenes, so I started revisiting my system. There is much I don't know about, maybe you can help?

My system:

Infinity 1262w's, 300rms, 1200 watts peak. Two each placed in a Full Marty Cabinet. NOT ENOUGH for me.

[snip]

TWO of these...loades with the B&C 18TBW100.. http://01966633.com/forum/155-d...l#post57227752
should keep you happy for a long time..... digs deep with plenty of midbass....



Enjoy


Juju

Wish List: LLT Sub Dual Fi Audio SSD Neo 18, 25 cuft 15Hz tune. Finalists http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/Finalists_1.html
DIY so far: LCR (RCF H100 3way) 2 - Full MARTY 460HO ( PIX from OLD profile) http://01966633.com/forum/155-d...l#post39937738
2- VBSS and a DIY Bass Shaker
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post #19 of 27 Old 01-09-2019, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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mtg90 budget VBSS, how about this?

This is more in line with my budget.

http://01966633.com/forum/155-d...gn-thread.html

What exactly is "Mid-Bass?"
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post #20 of 27 Old 01-09-2019, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush Tempo View Post
This is more in line with my budget.



http://01966633.com/forum/155-d...gn-thread.html



What exactly is "Mid-Bass?"

I believe 40-100hz?

It shows up in movies as chest slam and rumble.
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post #21 of 27 Old 01-09-2019, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush Tempo View Post
This is more in line with my budget.

http://01966633.com/forum/155-d...gn-thread.html

What exactly is "Mid-Bass?"
Mid-bass is generally in the 90 hz to 200 hz range. If your curious what is sounds like just go to you tube and search frequency sweep, there are several I have used this one
it will give you an idea of where in the bass range you prefer.
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post #22 of 27 Old 01-09-2019, 09:38 AM
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What is the budget for this project?

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
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post #23 of 27 Old 01-09-2019, 10:49 AM
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All else about equal I like somewhere around 3 12's to equal one 18. All else isn't generally equal, and there is a lot more to it than just driver diameter. I have a dozen 12's behind the couch and they have a presence far more violent than my 18's. Displacement isn't even close and neither was cost; the 12's are a lot less expensive. When on sale I can get 10-12 of them for the cost of one 18, but I do end up spending more on amplifiers. I am using the JBL's CS1214/CX1200/GX1200 that are the more modern version of the old infinities you have (good perf/$) and comparing them to UM-18's. Both in sealed boxes.

Your in room response is very nice but I (and many others) do not like flat. Try some software that allows you to shape the curve, DIRAC is amazing but you can do great things with just a minidsp or even the filters in some of the inukes. Try a target curve similar to the Harmon Target Curve to start and see how you like it.
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post #24 of 27 Old 01-13-2019, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Your in room response is very nice but I (and many others) do not like flat. Try some software that allows you to shape the curve, DIRAC is amazing but you can do great things with just a minidsp or even the filters in some of the inukes. Try a target curve similar to the Harmon Target Curve to start and see how you like it.
What is your preference? Do you guys boost at certain frequencies?

I've learned the problem with my system may be the placement of my listening position, and/or the placement of the LCR's. My two Marty's, one in the front of the room, and one at the back, carry the mid-bass quite well. My Center speaker measured by itself, full range, with no sub, lacks mid-bass from 125hz to 250hz. When the Center speaker is introduced with the subs, the 125 to 250hz range is destroyed, it drops 6db to 8db.

Currently, my crossover is set to 200hz. I'm trying to make my subs, (Marty's) carry the mid-bass. So, I'm thinking, I'm supposed to cross the subs to my mains around 80, 90, or 100. My subs aren't supposed to be working at the 125 to 250hz range. If so, then I need to work on placement of my LCR's to see if I can eliminate the null. Or, I need to measure my MLP at different distances to see if it changes things.

I have an iNuke3000 with dsp, so I will do as you suggest. I'll experiment with different curves and perhaps the Dynamic EQ in the iNuke.

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post #25 of 27 Old 01-13-2019, 10:26 PM
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What is your preference? Do you guys boost at certain frequencies?

I've learned the problem with my system may be the placement of my listening position, and/or the placement of the LCR's. My two Marty's, one in the front of the room, and one at the back, carry the mid-bass quite well. My Center speaker measured by itself, full range, with no sub, lacks mid-bass from 125hz to 250hz. When the Center speaker is introduced with the subs, the 125 to 250hz range is destroyed, it drops 6db to 8db.

Currently, my crossover is set to 200hz. I'm trying to make my subs, (Marty's) carry the mid-bass. So, I'm thinking, I'm supposed to cross the subs to my mains around 80, 90, or 100. My subs aren't supposed to be working at the 125 to 250hz range. If so, then I need to work on placement of my LCR's to see if I can eliminate the null. Or, I need to measure my MLP at different distances to see if it changes things.

I have an iNuke3000 with dsp, so I will do as you suggest. I'll experiment with different curves and perhaps the Dynamic EQ in the iNuke.
Yes, check out the "house curve" threads, and as I mentioned before, a good place to start is the harmon target curve. See attached. My own curve is a little more aggressive but looks very similar. Night and day difference between this and flat.
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post #26 of 27 Old 01-13-2019, 11:33 PM
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I liken anything below 150hz to 40hz as mid bass. IMO it made the biggest improvement in my system to properly EQ this range and give the most head room in. ULF has its place and it certainly does have a wow factor (Avengers 2, Ironman vs Hulk building demolition).


When figuring out how to "fix" your system, you need to see what it is you need to fix. Someone mentioned earlier the devastator which is a pretty amazing option that also works with the cheap PA460, the VBSS (PA460 as well) has bitchin midbass and decent extension.
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post #27 of 27 Old 01-14-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
That is amazingly flat, your room is good... you got lucky.



MAX spl isn't necessary nor a good thing to do generally. If you want to though, first I'd recommend deactivating everything but the subs, and then modifying your UMIK-1 for the 130db mode, found here->

http://01966633.com/forum/155-d...-umik-1-a.html



For measurements you always use dbZ, especially if you measure below 100hz or above 7khz or desire an accurate SPL figure.



If your subs go beyond 130db or REW detects clipping/red max'ing, then you'll need a TermLab or SPL Lab solid-state SPL meter (either is good for 180db+).


Thanks for posting this. I had no idea the mics are configurable.
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