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post #61 of 1348 Old 11-29-2017, 03:18 AM
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You mean the box BB wants to sell you with it wouldn't work?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/metra-1...?skuId=6504011
What a shock.

Yeah, I know, they expect you to use this in a car.
What a waste, eh?

Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #62 of 1348 Old 11-29-2017, 12:08 PM
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I got 4 of these that I am planning on putting in this ported design that EndersShadow pointed out to me. http://01966633.com/forum/155-di...ops-build.html.

Just wanted to share it here in case it is helpful to anyone else.
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post #63 of 1348 Old 11-29-2017, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcabes View Post
I got 4 of these that I am planning on putting in this ported design that EndersShadow pointed out to me. http://01966633.com/forum/155-di...ops-build.html.

Just wanted to share it here in case it is helpful to anyone else.
Cool beans. For giggles, I will put together a WinISD graph of this sub in that box to make sure we dont need to go a "little" bit bigger as the JBL's seem to need a bit more space than the Infinity 1260's that the i-clops box is built around.

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post #64 of 1348 Old 11-29-2017, 12:32 PM
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i picked up 2 of the previous model JBL's from sonic electronix for 30 bucks each...gonna put em behind the couch for some nearfield.

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post #65 of 1348 Old 11-29-2017, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Cool beans. For giggles, I will put together a WinISD graph of this sub in that box to make sure we dont need to go a "little" bit bigger as the JBL's seem to need a bit more space than the Infinity 1260's that the i-clops box is built around.
That would be great! I think I have the space available if I need to bump up the size a smidgen.
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post #66 of 1348 Old 11-29-2017, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bcabes View Post
That would be great! I think I have the space available if I need to bump up the size a smidgen.
And here they are.

A stock iclops with a Infinity and a JBL are VERY CLOSE, but the Infinity is better.



A slightly modified iclops (increase from 3.2 cubic feet to 5) makes them pretty much identical, with both drivers right at the limit of their performance.

**edit** noticed my JBL model in both graphs for the "stock" iclops was a box size of 3.54 rather than 3.2. So with both stock the infinity does a bit better than my model shows, not a ton, but there is additional differences in the lower end

And please note, none of these account for room gain, so the differences in real world may be too small to notice, but I mention because I'm OCD
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Last edited by EndersShadow; 11-29-2017 at 12:48 PM.
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post #67 of 1348 Old 11-29-2017, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
A slightly modified iclops (increase from 3.2 cubic feet to 5) makes them pretty much identical, with both drivers right at the limit of their performance.

**edit** noticed my JBL model in both graphs for the "stock" iclops was a box size of 3.54 rather than 3.2. So with both stock the infinity does a bit better than my model shows, not a ton, but there is additional differences in the lower end

And please note, none of these account for room gain, so the differences in real world may be too small to notice, but I mention because I'm OCD
Does it really matter how the volume is increased? For example, If I increased the height to 22 inches I think it should net 5 cubic feet minus bracing and driver (given I did math correctly), but I am not sure how the volume is increased matters.
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post #68 of 1348 Old 11-29-2017, 01:01 PM
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Does it really matter how the volume is increased? For example, If I increased the height to 22 inches I think it should net 5 cubic feet minus bracing and driver (given I did math correctly), but I am not sure how the volume is increased matters.
It does not. As long as you keep the port the same dimensions, going taller is a perfect way to go larger.

I'm not good with the math so I will let others do that lol.... I can tell you that the box size of 5 cubic feet is AFTER subtracting the bracing, driver, and port so keep that in mind.

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post #69 of 1348 Old 11-29-2017, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
And here they are.

A stock iclops with a Infinity and a JBL are VERY CLOSE, but the Infinity is better.



A slightly modified iclops (increase from 3.2 cubic feet to 5) makes them pretty much identical, with both drivers right at the limit of their performance.

**edit** noticed my JBL model in both graphs for the "stock" iclops was a box size of 3.54 rather than 3.2. So with both stock the infinity does a bit better than my model shows, not a ton, but there is additional differences in the lower end

And please note, none of these account for room gain, so the differences in real world may be too small to notice, but I mention because I'm OCD
can we put 2 driver per box?

Last edited by Rcris; 11-29-2017 at 10:02 PM.
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post #70 of 1348 Old 11-29-2017, 09:36 PM
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Received my jbl and the best buy box. I'm thinking of returning these due to box size requirements.

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post #71 of 1348 Old 11-30-2017, 01:05 PM
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so has anyone modeled 3 of these vs 1 pa460?


it would be interesting to see where these shine vs where the pa460 shines .

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post #72 of 1348 Old 11-30-2017, 01:32 PM
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Here is what the best buy ported box looks like. Should be around 1.5 cube. They say 1.3 on the paperwork.. But that has to be off considering the box is 2.0c without driver. The specs that came with the box state 1.3c 38hz tuned.
After using another calculator and measuring the bestbuy box here is what I came up with.


Last edited by 1983weatherby; 11-30-2017 at 02:26 PM.
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post #73 of 1348 Old 11-30-2017, 07:52 PM
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So you put one in here:
http://www.parts-express.com/open-b...touts--302-822
or two in here:
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton...vinyl--302-835
Fantastic. Sorry I missed it.
Michael
WOW! NOT for those prices. A full sheet of MDF is only like $25? My time is worth it,plus I enjoy building.
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post #74 of 1348 Old 03-27-2018, 04:46 PM
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Hypothetical question for those with experience using the JBL CX1200/CS1214 for sealed home subwoofers:

I've been rocking a single HSU TN-1220HO for nearly 20 years now and it supplies all the quality bass I need for the listening and viewing habits of my wife and myself. I don't want for more bass for either music or movies, so don't bother trying to tempt me. I read this forum all the time and never have a problem resisting the more bass disease. The 48" x 12" black cylinder at first caused an issue with my wife when it first went up in vertical orientation but since learning from Dr. Hsu that it works equally well laying on its side my wife has come to appreciate its qualities when hidden behind a sofa.

Hypothetically, if my original 12" driver and 250W Hsu plate amp were to simultaneously fail and I wanted to convert the black Sonotube to a sealed unit with a CX1200/CS1214 driver at each end powered by a DSP iNuke how close could I get in performance to the stock TN-1220HO? As is it's currently flat to 20Hz and -3dB at 18Hz before the infrasonic filter cuts in. I wonder how close a pair of sealed CX1200/CS1214 drivers could come to that with a little help from the iNuke DSP. I've read that a pair of these JBL drivers work best sealed in a ~3 cu. ft. enclosure, and the 48" x 12" Sonotube has an internal volume of ~3' cu. ft.

The Sonotube sub works in many ways for both me and my wife aside from being hidden behind the sofa. When she wants to clean behind the sofa I can tuck the cylinder under my arm and easily move it to the other side of the room. It's a little end heavy on the driver end but a pair of the JBL drivers would cure that. The whole cylinder weighs 32 lbs. I'm guessing the Hsu 12" driver weighs ~20 lbs. and the JBLs weigh ~10 lbs. each, so no weight gain and better balance when carrying under the arm.

It all seems to make so much sense that I'm afraid there must be a catch. Please let me know if I have a hit or a miss here.
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post #75 of 1348 Old 03-27-2018, 05:25 PM
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Without knowing the T/S parameters on the HSU driver obviously it's a guess but I'd expect them to be similar with the HSU winning around tune anywhere from 1-3db(possibly more) and of course the JBL's winning out up top and down low.

I believe @eng-399 posted the sealed sims for various size boxes and 1.5-2cuft was ideal. So if the sonotube is 3cuft then you should be good to go. One way or another it's just more or less power needed depending on the volume. I have 16 of em in 1cuft each due to size limitations and they're still fine. I need some serious eq to bring up the lows but I have enough displacement to handle it. Just might need more amp. I don't listen to music though for extended periods of time at full blast either so it's all how you're gonna use em.
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post #76 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 09:31 AM
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@Madaeel , thanks for your response. While I can't find the T/S parameters of the old HSU 12" driver there are some bits and pieces I've picked up scouring the web. For example, one fellow who wanted to update his TN-1220HO with a new amp used a MiniDSP to match the response of the original Hsu curve. Hsu tech support told him the original 250W plate amp was designed to provide the following boost:
Quote:
0.8dB @50Hz, 1.2dB @ 40Hz, 2.9dB @ 30Hz, 4.3dB @ 25Hz, 6.4db @ 20Hz, 6.8dB @ 18Hz, and then rolloff below 18Hz.
I did find a replication of a 1998 Audio review of the TN-1220HO that has some good details and graphs but they're a little hard to read:

gammaelectronics.xyz/audio_1998_Aug--hsu.html

I guess my main question is if the consensus is that one could come close to replicating the TN-1220HO's performance with proper equalization of a pair of CX1200/CS1214 drivers sealed in the same size Sonotube.

Considering that the unpowered TN-1220HO alone sold for $450 in 1998 dollars it would be interesting if one could at least come close to replicating the performance in 2018 for ~$100 if the CX1200/CS1214 drivers could be found at a great sale price and still <$200 even at the current street price of the CX1200. I'm pretty sure a DSP iNuke also undercuts the original price of the Hsu 250W plate amp.
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post #77 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
@Madaeel, thanks for your response. While I can't find the T/S parameters of the old HSU 12" driver there are some bits and pieces I've picked up scouring the web. For example, one fellow who wanted to update his TN-1220HO with a new amp used a MiniDSP to match the response of the original Hsu curve. Hsu tech support told him the original 250W plate amp was designed to provide the following boost:


I did find a replication of a 1998 Audio review of the TN-1220HO that has some good details and graphs but they're a little hard to read:

gammaelectronics.xyz/audio_1998_Aug--hsu.html

I guess my main question is if the consensus is that one could come close to replicating the TN-1220HO's performance with proper equalization of a pair of CX1200/CS1214 drivers sealed in the same size Sonotube.

Considering that the unpowered TN-1220HO alone sold for $450 in 1998 dollars it would be interesting if one could at least come close to replicating the performance in 2018 for ~$100 if the CX1200/CS1214 drivers could be found at a great sale price and still <$200 even at the current street price of the CX1200. I'm pretty sure a DSP iNuke also undercuts the original price of the Hsu 250W plate amp.
this would be a GREAT opportunity for you to spend a couple of bucks to build you a unit to measure the TS of your box. then you can put that in winisd and directly compare to the cs1214.


my cs1214 in a sealed 3.3 cf box had more decibels at 18hz than it did at 80 but that's because its in a 12x10 room and a fairly large box

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post #78 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 11:04 AM
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here is a link to a jig


http://01966633.com/forum/155-di...ement-jig.html

THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
Anders Torger for Brutefir
Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
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post #79 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
@Madaeel , thanks for your response. While I can't find the T/S parameters of the old HSU 12" driver there are some bits and pieces I've picked up scouring the web. For example, one fellow who wanted to update his TN-1220HO with a new amp used a MiniDSP to match the response of the original Hsu curve. Hsu tech support told him the original 250W plate amp was designed to provide the following boost:


I did find a replication of a 1998 Audio review of the TN-1220HO that has some good details and graphs but they're a little hard to read:

gammaelectronics.xyz/audio_1998_Aug--hsu.html

I guess my main question is if the consensus is that one could come close to replicating the TN-1220HO's performance with proper equalization of a pair of CX1200/CS1214 drivers sealed in the same size Sonotube.

Considering that the unpowered TN-1220HO alone sold for $450 in 1998 dollars it would be interesting if one could at least come close to replicating the performance in 2018 for ~$100 if the CX1200/CS1214 drivers could be found at a great sale price and still <$200 even at the current street price of the CX1200. I'm pretty sure a DSP iNuke also undercuts the original price of the Hsu 250W plate amp.
Well like 1201 mentioned you can get the T/S parameters for yourself building the rig he linked if you want to see the numbers as close as possible. You can also guess, reasonably close, just based on the drivers and the sims eng-399 posted earlier. You're comparing one 12 to another. The HSU I doubt is a long throw 12, since there's not many even made now cept maybe the SI-HST. The JBL is capable of 12-15mm Xmax so I'm sure that's close enough to the HSU since it'd have to be double that even for a 3db increase. Going ported gives you around 6-9db more around tune. With two 12's in a sealed box you should be close to that like I said around tune with the dual sealed winning up high and again below tune. IOW I seriously doubt if that sub has made you happy for 20 years going sealed, with double the drivers, won't.

BB has the drivers for half off all the time now and they might even do another black friday sale again this year. At either of those prices they really can't be beat.
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post #80 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rcris View Post
Bought a few of these today at BB, @LTD02 , @eng-399 : can you suggest a box for this driver something similar to Iclops
has anyone verified the T/S parameters of this driver?
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post #81 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
this would be a GREAT opportunity for you to spend a couple of bucks to build you a unit to measure the TS of your box. then you can put that in winisd and directly compare to the cs1214.


my cs1214 in a sealed 3.3 cf box had more decibels at 18hz than it did at 80 but that's because its in a 12x10 room and a fairly large box
You are giving me way too much credit. I'm just a lazy bum whose concept of DIY is to piggyback off someone else's hard work and assemble a few off-the-shelf pieces. Seriously, I have no workshop or woodworking tools so that's part of the allure of just figuring out a way to screw a couple of drivers to the ends of a Sonotube.

I appreciate your input that it's possible to get to 20Hz and below with this combo. The next question would be if it can come close to the ~110dB the stock TN-1220HO was measured at with room gain in the 20Hz range. It's sounding more and more as if this might be in reach and the performance of the TN-1220HO could be replicated in sealed form at a bargain price.

@Madaeel , I also appreciate your further input and encouragement. This is almost convincing me to spend a few bucks just for fun to see what I might be able to screw together (or screw up). Since @EndersShadow is in process of building multiple dual CS1214 sealed 16" Sonotubes of ~3 cu. ft. I just might wait to see how his turn out before getting serious about breaking out the credit card.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that Amazon is still showing multiple vendors with the CS1214 on sale for less than Best Buy is currently asking for the CX1200.

Last edited by Dave in Green; 03-28-2018 at 06:43 PM.
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post #82 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 06:41 PM
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For the CX1200? If so they're on the JBL website.
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post #83 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 07:14 PM
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I'm just a lazy bum whose concept of DIY is to piggyback off someone else's hard work and assemble a few off-the-shelf pieces. Seriously, I have no workshop or woodworking tools so that's part of the allure of just figuring out a way to screw a couple of drivers to the ends of a Sonotube.

I appreciate your input that it's possible to get to 20Hz and below with this combo. The next question would be if it can come close to the ~110dB the stock TN-1220HO was measured at with room gain in the 20Hz range. It's sounding more and more as if this might be in reach and the performance of the TN-1220HO could be replicated in sealed form at a bargain price.

Since @EndersShadow is in process of building multiple dual CS1214 sealed 16" Sonotubes of ~3 cu. ft. I just might wait to see how his turn out before getting serious about breaking out the credit card.
Couple comments lol...

1. I'm happy for you to piggyback off my work. I've done it off many folks here over time lol. However...
2. Dont wait for me before jumping.... Because I'm not gonna be fast with this build. Also....
3. Room gain is going to be different in each room, so whenever I get done, dont judge your potential by what I've got because my layout is not condusive to room gain in the slightest.

Not having tools is something I fully understand. However DIYSoundgroup has two options that would solve your problem. 1.5 cf & 2.0 cf sealed boxes. I'm sure you got enough skills to paint it, or for a bit (ok a lot) more, Parts Express has an interesting option... Its not cheap, but its fully finished and even if you DONT use the plate amp cutout thats fine lol.....

Also not sure if you read, my Sonotubes are gonna be Dual Opposed, so 2 subs per Sonotube, one on each end lol. And Sonotubes still require some work to do because you gotta cut some baffles for both sides. I too lack woodworking skills, but I know people with them..... just gotta drive to get to em, but its worth it for me lol...

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Last edited by EndersShadow; 03-28-2018 at 07:24 PM.
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post #84 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 07:25 PM
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@EndersShadow , I understand that room gain varies by room so I'm only looking for approximate performance potential. The DIYSG subwoofer boxes are way too heavy. I don't think you saw my earlier comment in this thread about tucking my TN-1220HO cylinder under my arm and moving it when the wife wants to clean behind the sofa. But I am looking at other DIYSG speakers other than subs. I'm also planning two drivers in a Sonotube, but a 48" x 12" tube that would fit behind the sofa as my current TN-1220HO does and weigh roughly the same 32 lbs. (two 10 lb. drivers instead of one 20 lb. driver).

I guess at this point I really don't need to wait for your build as I think I've seen enough to believe the concept will work.
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post #85 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
@EndersShadow , I understand that room gain varies by room so I'm only looking for approximate performance potential. The DIYSG subwoofer boxes are way too heavy. I don't think you saw my earlier comment in this thread about tucking my TN-1220HO cylinder under my arm and moving it when the wife wants to clean behind the sofa. But I am looking at other DIYSG speakers other than subs. I'm also planning two drivers in a Sonotube, but a 48" x 12" tube that would fit behind the sofa as my current TN-1220HO does and weigh roughly the same 32 lbs. (two 10 lb. drivers instead of one 20 lb. driver).

I guess at this point I really don't need to wait for your build as I think I've seen enough to believe the concept will work.
Gotcha. Re-using a existing box makes total sense to me. Is it sealed or ported? If ported, whats the diameter and length of the port?

I'm happy to try and run some simulations for you as to how it might measure. Are you using the stock amp, or looking to go with something like an iNuke?

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post #86 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
You are giving me way too much credit. I'm just a lazy bum whose concept of DIY is to piggyback off someone else's hard work and assemble a few off-the-shelf pieces. Seriously, I have no workshop or woodworking tools so that's part of the allure of just figuring out a way to screw a couple of drivers to the ends of a Sonotube.

I appreciate your input that it's possible to get to 20Hz and below with this combo. The next question would be if it can come close to the ~110dB the stock TN-1220HO was measured at with room gain in the 20Hz range. It's sounding more and more as if this might be in reach and the performance of the TN-1220HO could be replicated in sealed form at a bargain price.

@Madaeel , I also appreciate your further input and encouragement. This is almost convincing me to spend a few bucks just for fun to see what I might be able to screw together (or screw up). Since @EndersShadow is in process of building multiple dual CS1214 sealed 16" Sonotubes of ~3 cu. ft. I just might wait to see how his turn out before getting serious about breaking out the credit card.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that Amazon is still showing multiple vendors with the CS1214 on sale for less than Best Buy is charging for the CX1200.
I'm assuming you meant the 110db measured with room gain in the review? That's dependent on the room itself and of course that sub was ported. It's possible yes since two in 3cuft would hit 102db before any room gain. Placement is key too. You mentioned it's right behind you though correct? With that placement you wouldn't see as much gain since its near field and it would resemble it's native response. Again though that's two totally different rooms and alignments.
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post #87 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 09:31 PM
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Since my TN-1220HO is still operational I would spend a few bucks on a new duplicate 48" length of 12" diameter Sonotube which would have a volume of ~3 cu. ft. and mount a CX1200 or CS1214 at each end in a sealed configuration. I assume I could increase the effective volume to ~3.4 cubic feet by stuffing it with the appropriate amount of fiber fill. I would power it with an iNuke3000DSP in bridged mode and since the amp is not rated for 2Ω in bridged mode I'd wire the two 4Ω speakers for ~1,500W into 8Ω.

The sofa is actually not where I sit but on a side wall. The TN-1220HO tube currently lays on the floor against the side wall so there is some boundary reinforcement. I've tried it all around the room and conveniently it seems to work best hidden behind the sofa to my wife's relief.
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post #88 of 1348 Old 03-28-2018, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Seriously, I have no workshop or woodworking tools so that's part of the allure of just figuring out a way to screw a couple of drivers to the ends of a Sonotube.
I did it this way:
http://01966633.com/forum/155-di...s-no-glue.html
But you remember that, right?

Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #89 of 1348 Old 03-29-2018, 12:49 AM
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@LastButNotLeast , you're darned right I remember where the seed was planted. It's just been germinating real slowly since I posted the following in your thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
As I sit here a few feet away from my trusty Hsu TN1220-HO, I can't help but admire the ingenuity in this build. It does make me wonder how this sealed design would perform with a 12" Sonotube and a worthy 12" woofer at each end. With a miniDSP to smooth out response and extend the bottom end along with sufficient amp power, it could produce a pretty interesting package.
The only change from my initial reaction is that an iNuke3000DSP provides amp and DSP in one package. I really liked your idea of the threaded rods, too. I just need to visit our local Lowes, Home Depot and Menards to do a little measuring to see if I can find the right 12" tube to match up with the JBL speaker dimensions.
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post #90 of 1348 Old 03-29-2018, 08:32 AM
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Great! Go for it!

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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