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post #61 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Wait....bigger box means lower power handling? so I need a super high powered amp? I have seven 20amp circuits in the equipment room. How much wattage would I need to compensate for the decrease in power handling?
Bigger boxes means you'll get more excursion (and output) with less power. This will have more of an effect on the lower frequencies than the upper.
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post #62 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Wait....bigger box means lower power handling? so I need a super high powered amp? I have seven 20amp circuits in the equipment room. How much wattage would I need to compensate for the decrease in power handling?
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Ah, ok! Thanks Scott! I was getting worried!
Yeah, seriously bud, don't worry about this.

This is pretending you have settled on the HST-18 anyway. Scrutinizing meaningless minutia at this point won't get you anywhere in the pursuit of bass bliss.
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post #63 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 11:41 AM
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Too large of an enclosure will have more trouble controlling excursion on the low end. The specified box was 13 cubic feet (external dimension). The HST and ZV4 seem to model best in around 3-4 cubes (internal)
I used my enclosure volume calculator and the internal volume is closer to 10cuft. He can make this even tighter, no problem.



Matt, this is true that you will lose a mild amount of 'power handling' (mechanical, not electrical) down low but it will only affect the performance ~10hz and lower at which point I guarantee you will have some form of rolloff in the signal chain which will protect the system at this frequency range anyway. Like I said, it's really of no concern. In the real world you will never have to worry about this.
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post #64 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 11:44 AM
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This is my new favorite thread...

...and More's 16 x 12 nearfield "experiment/mad science project"


I have an image of Beast laying in the chair like Neo getting plugged in and learning kung fu....


BASS... Chasing it will make your head hurt in more ways than one!
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post #65 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 11:47 AM
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post #66 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 12:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Wait....bigger box means lower power handling? so I need a super high powered amp? I have seven 20amp circuits in the equipment room. How much wattage would I need to compensate for the decrease in power handling?
Yeah do not over think it. It's pennies versus dollars.

Secondly, most proper sub solutions are already overpowered. Just because you have, doesn't mean you'll always use it. But if you need and you don't have it- that is bad. Think of power like insurance.

Ideally your amps should be able to juice out the worst case full tilt scenario without clipping. If you run under that, all gravy.
Changing your box from 5 cubic internal volume to 4 cubes does increase power handling a little, but again it's pennies versus dollars. You'll still probably end up using the same amp in either case, and it's enough in either case too. Not something you worry about.

You do want a powerful amp- but withing reason. A slight ability to overpower is the sweet spot, where you don't spend more than you need to spend, and you never have a situation where you'd ever need more.

Or you can put a Powersoft K20 on each one and watch the world burn.
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post #67 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 03:06 PM
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Those 21SW are only $650 at USSpeak too guys...
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post #68 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 03:08 PM
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A lot of wallets in pain real soon!
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post #69 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 04:57 PM
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Absolute Performance: Best Known 18" and 24" Driver

We have got to stop saying that larger boxes reduce power handling. It's a meaningless statement. I mean, by that logic, we should be using 1 cubic foot boxes for our 18s, because, hey, more power handling, right? And Infinite Baffle is worthless because, hey, infinite box is way too big and has no power handling at all!

Larger boxes are more efficient than smaller boxes. End of discussion. The output at the mid/upper bass frequencies doesn't matter at all. First, a measly amount of PEQ will put all the upper bass power back into the system. Second, there's not a person on the planet who has ever complained about having too much under 20 Hz and not enough over 60. The low stuff is the hard part; by the time you get enough at 20 or below, you've got more of the high stuff than you need.
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post #70 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 04:58 PM
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post #71 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
We have got to stop saying that larger boxes reduce power handling. It's a meaningless statement. I mean, by that logic, we should be using 1 cubic foot boxes for our 18s, because, hey, more power handling, right? And Infinite Baffle is worthless because, hey, infinite box is way too big and has no power handling at all!

Larger boxes are more efficient than smaller boxes. End of discussion. The output at the mid/upper bass frequencies doesn't matter at all. First, a measly amount of PEQ will put all the upper bass power back into the system. Second, there's not a person on the planet who has ever complained about having too much under 20 Hz and not enough over 60. The low stuff is the hard part; by the time you get enough at 20 or below, you've got more of the high stuff than you need.
This. Times eighth billion.

It is far easier to make up ground in the 50-80hz region than it will ever be to do 20 and below.
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post #72 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jcr159 View Post
This is my new favorite thread...

...and More's 16 x 12 nearfield "experiment/mad science project"


I have an image of Beast laying in the chair like Neo getting plugged in and learning kung fu....


BASS... Chasing it will make your head hurt in more ways than one!
Lol...

BrolicBeast: "I know DIY."
The DIY Forum: "Show Me."
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post #73 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
We have got to stop saying that larger boxes reduce power handling. It's a meaningless statement. I mean, by that logic, we should be using 1 cubic foot boxes for our 18s, because, hey, more power handling, right? And Infinite Baffle is worthless because, hey, infinite box is way too big and has no power handling at all!

Larger boxes are more efficient than smaller boxes. End of discussion. The output at the mid/upper bass frequencies doesn't matter at all. First, a measly amount of PEQ will put all the upper bass power back into the system. Second, there's not a person on the planet who has ever complained about having too much under 20 Hz and not enough over 60. The low stuff is the hard part; by the time you get enough at 20 or below, you've got more of the high stuff than you need.
Ah! Thank you kind sir! Low end prowess is definitely more important....I may even do mid-bass modules a la @dlbeck (The Savoy Theater) in order to maximize output at all Hz.
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post #74 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Are two 18" drivers better than one 24" driver in the 21/27/42 cabinet?
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post #75 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 06:48 PM
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post #76 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 06:49 PM
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Are two 18" drivers better than one 24" driver in the 21/27/42 cabinet?
Depends on the driver parameters but...

18" area = 254.46"^2

24" area = 452.38"^2

You get more surface area with two 18" drivers.
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post #77 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 06:56 PM
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So what are the disadvantages of doing dual 24'''s as in the layout? It seems like this is the simplest solution and offers good output everywhere. Maybe someone can fill us in here?

Is there any advantage to having drivers closer to the ceiling or did he do the calculations based on the drivers being near the floor?

If you are willing to give up the ULF then you might look into Ghallerhorns as long as they fit. If you want tremendous clean output where it matters most then they are a good option. I have heard the ULF stuff and it is kinda cool but I always thought that I would prefer to get the other frequencies right first. I don't know whether this is true but some people have said that sealed subs don't offer quite the punch that bass heads desire. Especially on a concrete floor. And that ported and horns will get you there. I can tell you that my Orbit Shifter is a horn and it punches like a donkey! Even on a concrete floor. Very visceral experience if you want it to be. Again I don't know if this is true but it might be something to consider. Maybe others can chime in with their experience with these different configurations.

Plus you get to tell people you have Ghallerhorns. I mean how cool is that! I just want to say it over and over. I am looking forward to hearing a pair at d_c's in a few weeks. Will also get to hear his 24'' twins while there! Can't wait!
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post #78 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by STL D View Post
There was a get together where they compared the HS24 to TWO LMS5400's.

The HS24 won. Convincingly.

If this guy has the space for the boxes, I'd go for the 24".
Didn't mean to imply that the 18" would be better than the 24". Just that it was the best 18"..he wants to use both sizes. Suppose its a moot point now if the LMS is not available.

Last edited by bear123; 03-26-2015 at 07:08 PM.
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post #79 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 07:10 PM
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Depends on the driver parameters but...

18" area = 254.46"^2

24" area = 452.38"^2

You get more surface area with two 18" drivers.
Twice as much motor which is worth any difference, imo.

Twice as many voicecoils (which are the same size) to soak up power. Less compression, less non-linearities.
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post #80 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 08:06 PM
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Twice as much motor which is worth any difference, imo.

Twice as many voicecoils (which are the same size) to soak up power. Less compression, less non-linearities.
Interesting. So dual 18's in each corner could be a better idea for him than the 24''s for those reasons?
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post #81 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 08:24 PM
 
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I like 18s better; you just need twice as many
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post #82 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 08:25 PM
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Absolute Performance: Best Known 18" and 24" Driver

According to a quick model, comparing an HS24 with 3600W to two HST18s with the same amount of power in 10CF, the 18s have more output down low. HS24 needs a larger box (13 CF at least) or more power. And Scott's points stand about two 18s getting 1800W each versus one 24 getting all 3600W is valid.

Keep in mind, the difference is small; either option would work just fine. Some people have said they want the 24 JUST BECAUSE. Nothing wrong with that.
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post #83 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 08:51 PM
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Those 21SW are only $650 at USSpeak too guys...

haha, you going that way now?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #84 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 09:12 PM
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Nah, haven't made any sub decisions yet, just lookin'.. hahaha


I was talking with Al earlier when I called for pricing on the sw21 and he brought up some 18 Ciari driver that he says is a great secret at 400...he says guys are using it and it smokes the 21sw. He also challenged me to try it and says it will outgun LMS, UXL etc....I haven't gotten to model it yet, but it doesn't seem realistic to me when quickly looking at it.
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post #85 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 09:15 PM
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haha, you going that way now?

Hahaha...nah, just looking and trying to help with info in someone else's adventure for a change


I did talk with Al when I called to get 21sw pricing and he was trying to get me to try an 18" Ciari driver that he says beats up the 21 and is only 400. He says it will beat up on an LMS to...doesn't seem likely but I haven't had a chance to model it yet just for grins.
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post #86 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 09:19 PM
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haha, you going that way now?
Those B&C 21s are no joke
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post #87 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 09:20 PM
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http://www.usspeaker.com/ciare%201800sw-1.htm


This is the driver he was talking about...I may just be mudding up the thread, if so sorry brolic...just thought it may be something for someone to look at. Al was very enthusiastic about it, I just don't see how it could compete output wise with the top of the heap...maybe I'm wrong
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post #88 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 09:23 PM
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double up

Last edited by ChopShop1; 03-26-2015 at 09:26 PM. Reason: dub
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post #89 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 09:27 PM
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Those B&C 21s are no joke

They seem legit...stack up well from 30hz on up in Riccis tests, and would seemingly do better below that than most, when put in optimal enclosure...I think
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post #90 of 294 Old 03-26-2015, 09:30 PM
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Why no love for the ftw-21?

Btw - the Ciare 18.00 SW has a 14mm Xmax and a resonant frequency of 36 hz (hardly seems like a Lms killer
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