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post #31 of 182 Old 10-10-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
A phase adjustment shifts the entire phase response back or forth, delay (which is what the speaker distance settings do) changes the slope of the phase response allowing for a more perfect overlay between the phase response of the subwoofers and that of the speakers.
So how would PEQ filters affect phase linear speakers? would they have some shift at that point?

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post #32 of 182 Old 10-10-2014, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Most do to some degree, it's not a huge shift unless the magnitude of the filter is very large. With a positive gain you will see a small upward bump in phase before the filter frequency and small downwards pull after. A negative gain in the filter will be opposite. The phase at the exact frequency of the filter remains unchanged. The bandwidth of those phase deviations is directly related to the Q of the filter, just like the frequency.
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post #33 of 182 Old 10-11-2014, 08:29 AM
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"A phase adjustment shifts the entire phase response back or forth, delay (which is what the speaker distance settings do) changes the slope of the phase response allowing for a more perfect overlay between the phase response of the subwoofers and that of the speakers."


this is a good point, but is going to fly right past 90% of forum lurkers. at some point, you may wish to expand on it with a picture or two. part of the complicating factor is in a small room, these relationships aren't nearly as predictable as they are groundplane (thinking of the very low end here...) so for practical purposes either method that gets the crossover right could actually provide for the better overall response.
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post #34 of 182 Old 10-25-2014, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Added integration of subs with mains on Post #3.
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post #35 of 182 Old 10-25-2014, 01:48 PM
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Matt,

Thank you very much for sharing your experience.
Regarding integration with the mains, did you find that the final distance setting worked well with all three front channels?
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post #36 of 182 Old 10-25-2014, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, here is a graph showing the center channel with subs at the LP:

Now you may be thinking that does not look very good, but the cancelation centered at 76 Hz is not due to an integration issue between the subs and center but rather a room interaction causing a severe phase shift around that frequency. I am guessing it is off the side walls since it is centered in the room.

You can see that if I move the mic and place it about 2' from the center channel speaker to reduce the effects of the side walls (and turn off the rear subs so that they don't cause miss alignment issues) that integration with the subs is still good:


If the reflections off the side walls could be attenuated at those frequencies I am willing to bet it would go away. Unfortunately that would require quite a bit more absorption then I have up
currently.


One thing I forgot to try is measuring off to the sides of a row to see if it changes when the not centered in the room, if it does this also support the sidewall reflection hypothesis.
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post #37 of 182 Old 10-26-2014, 03:45 AM
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Outstanding walk-through post and thread, Matt. Between your info and the included references within (to Seaton's methodology, beast's process, etcetera), graphed exemplars, and possible updates/streamlining of initial posts, could this eventually be sticky material (no jokes here, gents!)?
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post #38 of 182 Old 12-01-2014, 07:32 PM
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Matt - free bump here where it is needed/deserved! I need to add this to the FAQ. well done!
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post #39 of 182 Old 12-01-2014, 07:37 PM
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Should be a sticky, fo sho.
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post #40 of 182 Old 12-17-2014, 07:01 PM
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post #41 of 182 Old 12-17-2014, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I usually have the AVR set to -25, just need it high enough that any background noise is not interfering with the measurements.
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post #42 of 182 Old 02-24-2015, 04:49 PM
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Matt, I was messing around with distance settings last night and I'm confused.

Is it possible that the distance settings in an AVR and the distance settings on the minidsp (I have the 2x4) work in opposite ways?

What I mean is, with my AVR if I increase the distance setting the sound gets to my ears quicker. The opposite seems to be true for the minidsp.

So here is what I did.

1. I took a frequency sweep of my subs and mains in their current settings.

2. I decreased the distance settings for my subs on my AVR by 8'5" (the same as 7.5 ms or close to it). The initial distance on the avr settings was 13' and I changed it to 4' 7" Doing this will make the sound from the subs get to my ears later.

3. I increased the delay in my minidsp that controls the subs by 7.5 ms (it was at 0).

4. I took another frequency sweep.

5. I expected the 2 sweeps to match, they did not.

6. So, I tried it the other way. I increased the AVR sub distance by 8' 5" from it's initial setting, so I went from 13' to 21' 5".

7. I I left the minidsp at 7.5 ms.

8. I took another frequency sweep and now it matched up exactly with my first measurement when the avr was at 13' and the minidsp was at 0.


This makes me think the avr uses distance settings in the opposite way that the minidsp uses distance settings??

If so, then adding delay on the mini means increasing the time it takes for the sub output to get to my ears and adding delay to the avr means decreasing the time it takes for the sub output to get to my ears??

I'm 100% on the AVR end of it, I know for sure that higher distance means sound gets to me quicker, it's the mini (and the inuke dsp for that matter) that I'm not sure about.
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post #43 of 182 Old 02-24-2015, 05:05 PM
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Carp, there is a difference between distance delay numbers and actual ms delay numbers.

I see why you're getting a headache.

When you increase the distance of your front speakers on your AVR, it should and will increase the delay to the other speakers which are much closer. Those are the speakers that require extra delay. You are not adding delay to the fronts. Nor does increasing the distance setting. This is why you are seeing a 'backwards' reading. Each time you increase the distance of your fronts (in relation to the surrounds/closer speakers) it will add more delay to the surrounds.

The minidsp may (I dont own one) display its delay settings by an actual ms amount. So you would be increasing delay by moving away from 0ms.

So (on your AVR) if you have your surrounds at 0ft and enter 8.5ft for your main LCR then the AVR will add an amount of delay to the surrounds at 0ft.

No processor will speed up sound. Only delay.

Make sense now?
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post #44 of 182 Old 02-24-2015, 06:22 PM
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Thanks, I replied in the other thread - ha, guess I should have kept it to one thread in the first place.
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post #45 of 182 Old 02-25-2015, 02:55 PM
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Just wondering if there's another good alternative to the omnimic without all the software that will still work well with REW?

I was thinking the

Dayton Audio UMM-6 USB Measurement Microphone or the UMIK-1, are these good accurate mics once the downloadable cal file is used?

They are both under $100

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post #46 of 182 Old 02-26-2015, 05:31 AM
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I got the Umik1 and was up and running within minutes using it with REW. I've nothing to compare it to to be honest but it seems to work well for measuring speakers - that's all I've used it for so far and I'm very pleased with it. I'd be interested to know what the more expert members think of it though.

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post #47 of 182 Old 02-26-2015, 06:30 AM
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I got my mic from cross spectrum labs and it is a calibrated UMM6. They are literally the same price buying from cross spectrum instead of from parts express and you get the calibration files. No brainer. They have other mics there also.

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post #48 of 182 Old 02-26-2015, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I got the Umik1 and was up and running within minutes using it with REW. I've nothing to compare it to to be honest but it seems to work well for measuring speakers - that's all I've used it for so far and I'm very pleased with it. I'd be interested to know what the more expert members think of it though.

Gary


I've been researching a little and it seems the other mics I mentioned as well as the Umik1 are all recommended on Home Theater Shack in the REW setup stickies.

I finally found the Umik1 (with cal) without the software for $75 so that makes the decision easy, it seems to be more popular.
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post #49 of 182 Old 02-26-2015, 10:11 AM
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Thank you for the bump. I missed this thread the first time around. I have been attempting to do this without the knowledge given here. The detail and visual aids make this process feel much less daunting. Thank you!
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post #50 of 182 Old 02-26-2015, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
I got my mic from cross spectrum labs and it is a calibrated UMM6. They are literally the same price buying from cross spectrum instead of from parts express and you get the calibration files. No brainer. They have other mics there also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
I've been researching a little and it seems the other mics I mentioned as well as the Umik1 are all recommended on Home Theater Shack in the REW setup stickies.

I finally found the Umik1 (with cal) without the software for $75 so that makes the decision easy, it seems to be more popular.
I also purchased my mic from cross spectrum labs. I purchased their Umik1 and have zero complaints. Granted I'm still very green and haven't had experience with any other mics but REW identifies the Umik1 on start up and prompts you for some additional files (provided by CSL). CSL calibrates the mics down to 5 hz, which is beneficial for sub measurements.
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post #51 of 182 Old 02-26-2015, 01:51 PM
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a bit late to the party but subscribed and also a desktop icon
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post #52 of 182 Old 02-27-2015, 08:51 AM
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Hey @markrubin do you think this might possibly need to be a sticky after the last couple responses pertaining to missing this great walkthrough?
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post #53 of 182 Old 02-27-2015, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Hey @markrubin do you think this might possibly need to be a sticky after the last couple responses pertaining to missing this great walkthrough?
Agreed, this is the best Subwoofer setup guide I've seen by a long shot.
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post #54 of 182 Old 03-14-2015, 04:32 PM
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Thanks for this, Matt. Time delay was always something I knew I could improve, but was struggling to grasp the concept. I found this a couple of weeks ago and finally had time today to try it out. I spent about 3-5 hours today dialing everything in and it sounds MUCH better. This helped immensely. Thank you! thank you!
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post #55 of 182 Old 04-07-2015, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Carp, there is a difference between distance delay numbers and actual ms delay numbers.

I see why you're getting a headache.

When you increase the distance of your front speakers on your AVR, it should and will increase the delay to the other speakers which are much closer. Those are the speakers that require extra delay. You are not adding delay to the fronts. Nor does increasing the distance setting. This is why you are seeing a 'backwards' reading. Each time you increase the distance of your fronts (in relation to the surrounds/closer speakers) it will add more delay to the surrounds.

The minidsp may (I dont own one) display its delay settings by an actual ms amount. So you would be increasing delay by moving away from 0ms.

So (on your AVR) if you have your surrounds at 0ft and enter 8.5ft for your main LCR then the AVR will add an amount of delay to the surrounds at 0ft.

No processor will speed up sound. Only delay.

Make sense now?

Scott, Why is it when I add or subtract delay on the sub in my avr nothing happens as far as response between my mains and sub? I have a Denon 4520 with Audyssey XT32 and Auddy is engaged. Is it because I have auddy on and it is changing everything with me adding delay to my subs? I am trying to get the most out of my subs and have more coming.

I see that the OP is adding delay to his subs in his avr to integrate with his mains. Does this mean that he will not be using any auto room correction after the subs are time aligned with the mains? This is the only thing not explained in this wonderful write up. He says that time align all subs and the eq them collectively. Then time align them with the mains, so when does auto room correction take place?

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post #56 of 182 Old 04-07-2015, 09:57 AM
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You certainly want to disable Audyssey until you have gone through all the steps in this guide. At best you might get a response that does not need any further EQ applied.

I can't tell what you have done as far as following this guide but if you were trying to apply the directions in here with Audyssey already set then I'd turn it off and start from the beginning. Then re run Audyssey.
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Audyssey seems to always get in the way...
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post #58 of 182 Old 04-07-2015, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Scott, Why is it when I add or subtract delay on the sub in my avr nothing happens as far as response between my mains and sub? I have a Denon 4520 with Audyssey XT32 and Auddy is engaged. Is it because I have auddy on and it is changing everything with me adding delay to my subs? I am trying to get the most out of my subs and have more coming.

I see that the OP is adding delay to his subs in his avr to integrate with his mains. Does this mean that he will not be using any auto room correction after the subs are time aligned with the mains? This is the only thing not explained in this wonderful write up. He says that time align all subs and the eq them collectively. Then time align them with the mains, so when does auto room correction take place?
It may take about a foot or so of adjustment to see any noticeable change, I don't know how far you were making adjustments, obviously if you are making 1-2" adjustments you are not likely to see changes. Also depending upon the AVR you may need to back out of the distance adjustment menu for the new settings to take effect.

You should run room correction after you have finished integrated the subs together using the external DSP and before you integrate them with the main speakers. Often the room correction does not get the subwoofer distance setting perfectly aligned with the mains and it will mess up any of those settings if you adjusted them before running it.

It is your choice if you want to EQ the subs before or after running room correction. If you EQ before you may have to go back in and make further adjustments after room correction runs to refine the response to taste as Audessey will try to adjust your EQ'ed response to match its target curve.
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post #59 of 182 Old 04-07-2015, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
It may take about a foot or so of adjustment to see any noticeable change, I don't know how far you were making adjustments, obviously if you are making 1-2" adjustments you are not likely to see changes. Also depending upon the AVR you may need to back out of the distance adjustment menu for the new settings to take effect.

You should run room correction after you have finished integrated the subs together using the external DSP and before you integrate them with the main speakers. Often the room correction does not get the subwoofer distance setting perfectly aligned with the mains and it will mess up any of those settings if you adjusted them before running it.

It is your choice if you want to EQ the subs before or after running room correction. If you EQ before you may have to go back in and make further adjustments after room correction runs to refine the response to taste as Audessey will try to adjust your EQ'ed response to match its target curve.

Ah, that makes sense about backing out of the distance settings to see the response change. I moved it all the way up and down and nothing changed on my sweeps so I was like "WTF"!

Audyssey did not set the best delays for my subs, so I changed all three of my DSP's and got a way better response.

I like to eq before audyssey so that if I ever have to run it again, I will already have most of the work done and would only have to do some minor tweaking or set a better house curve.

This is my house curve that I have implemented. 1/6 smoothing

This is with 10 sealed subs and I have four UXL18's on the way. Two of those 10 subs will be replaced though, but you can see that I am nuts on the ULF range. With that low end boosted so much, it takes the foot steps in TIH fight scene to entire new level! It is addicting for sure!

I personally do not like Audyssey. However, it is the only thing that I can use for everything else in the bandwidth. I barely got to play around with Dirac for a bit and like it a lot for more control. Soon I will get a chance to use it some more in the near future, but so far it is great!
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post #60 of 182 Old 04-08-2015, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
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This is with 10 sealed subs and I have four UXL18's on the way. Two of those 10 subs will be replaced though, but you can see that I am nuts on the ULF range. With that low end boosted so much, it takes the foot steps in TIH fight scene to entire new level! It is addicting for sure!
That is some crazy good low end especially for sealed. You're getting great room gain. I'm guessing there's no boosting on the sub EQ all room gain???
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