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post #61 of 488 Old 05-03-2011, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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4x 120v 30a, 10 gauge wire dedicated runs.
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post #62 of 488 Old 05-03-2011, 06:25 PM
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ah...

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #63 of 488 Old 05-06-2011, 03:13 PM
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I just made one of these using a Crydom solid state relay piggy-backed by a small heat sink. Also wired in a female 1/8" stereo plug so it can easily be controlled by my 12 volt trigger out from my receiver. Works like a charm!
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post #64 of 488 Old 05-06-2011, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

4x 120v 30a, 10 gauge wire dedicated runs.

Have you considered upsizing your branch circuit wire?

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post #65 of 488 Old 05-06-2011, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Have you considered upsizing your branch circuit wire?

Why?

10 gauge wire is code for 30a. It's already a bitch to run.
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post #66 of 488 Old 05-06-2011, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Why?

10 gauge wire is code for 30a. It's already a bitch to run.
Yes, 10awg is the minimum wire size for a 30a run. However, there are other issues that must be considered. The issue relevant in this situation is the length of the run. IMO, I'd up-size any branch circuit one size that's serving an amplifier (unless it's very short). The NEC is a minimum, up-sizing wire size addresses any potential voltage drop issues.

Yes, amplifier loads are transient in nature, but voltage drop is insidious like compression. Some amplifiers respond better with lowering line voltage from high drive levels, be it sustained or transient. Some amplifiers are intolerant to line side drop, impacting capability. I prefer to remove it from the equation.

Aside from dangerous fault current trips, oftentimes breakers trip resulting from the effects of escalating voltage drop, that heighten current, which quickly raises voltage drop,... precipitating the over-current trip from voltage drop. Tripping breakers isn't the issue, subtle voltage drop is. I like to eliminate the possibility.

Good luck

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post #67 of 488 Old 05-06-2011, 06:38 PM
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notnyt. I think you need better bracing.
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post #68 of 488 Old 05-06-2011, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post
Yes, 10awg is the minimum wire size for a 30a run. However, there are other issues that must be considered. The issue relevant in this situation is the length of the run. IMO, I'd up-size any branch circuit one size that's serving an amplifier (unless it's very short). The NEC is a minimum, up-sizing wire size addresses any potential voltage drop issues.

Yes, amplifier loads are transient in nature, but voltage drop is insidious like compression. Some amplifiers respond better with lowering line voltage from high drive levels, be it sustained or transient. Some amplifiers are intolerant to line side drop, impacting capability. I prefer to remove it from the equation.

Aside from dangerous fault current trips, oftentimes breakers trip resulting from the effects of escalating voltage drop, that heighten current, which quickly raises voltage drop,... precipitating the over-current trip from voltage drop. Tripping breakers isn't the issue, subtle voltage drop is. I like to eliminate the possibility.

Good luck
Not really worried about a 25' dedicated run here. Even 12awg wire can carry 30 amps that far without a drop, they're just not up to code for in wall installation. I think you're getting a bit carried away here.
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post #69 of 488 Old 05-07-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Not really worried about a 25' dedicated run here. Even 12awg wire can carry 30 amps that far without a drop, they're just not up to code for in wall installation. I think you're getting a bit carried away here.

You're right, it's not necessary. But saying 12 gauge can carry 30 amps without voltage drop isn't true. Also, any discussion must include length. It's fine if it's not a concern of yours, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Up-sizing branch circuits for voltage drop is very common, especially if the load approaches the circuits limits. A 25 feet run, I'd up-size it. It will exhibit voltage drop under load, period. Will it affect the performance of your amps? I don't know. I prefer to eliminate that concern and up-size any amplifier circuit.

Having spent a career in the electrical industry (and a multi decade foray in live sound), the final decade of which I spent centered around event power for the largest events you can imagine, down to the smallest and most technical situations imaginable. Load calculations, voltage drop, borderline scenarios were a way of life.

So, that said, no a 12awg line of any normal length can not carry 30amps without drop. Will it carry it, absolutely. You'd may actually be surprised how much amperage wire can carry. If the connection points are tight and sound, a circuit in open air can carry extraordinary amounts of current. Enough to get so hot you can't touch it! I've seen the finest Hubble cord caps melt into liquid with breaker interruption. But the heat being produced as a by-product of current flow, is manifested as voltage drop. Not under load, it's not present, under load,..however brief, it's there. With the voltage drop come a corresponding increase in current, this is the insidious aspect. Just as the kick drum beater hits, the large signal voltage demands peak current from the PS, thereby sucking the line voltage down, raising the current lowering the voltage even more. Some amps deal with this better than others.

Amp design isn't within my wheelhouse, so I don't know which amp designs are more immune to line drop than others. conventional wisdom would lead me to believe big, conventional and non-switching designs would be more immune. But I'm really out of my league with amp design.

Back OT. A 25 foot run, in general is medium in length IMO for amps, and borderline. Your 25 foot run, if accessible, I'd use one size bigger. Especially given your LF rig is absolutely non-compromise and world class in nature. I also felt your SS relays used before were a concern as well.

Bottom line, will it matter? Yes, it matters. I've seen it, I've measured it. Is it discernible in your rig? I don't know. I just don't like to entertain the thought, so I up-size.


Thanks

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post #70 of 488 Old 05-07-2011, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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It's actually run in wall and not accessible, so it's going to stay 10 gauge for now. If I could upgrade, I'd take your advice. I've seen the SSR's under full load drop 100w. The only time that's ever happened is when I've output full signal 10hz sine waves. However, before the SSR, I've seen the amps briefly pull 2900w, and continuously 2500, without the voltage dropping. Granted, a 30a circuit will carry 3600w at maximum load, but that's higher than I've been able to observe with the current gear. I'll take some measurements when I have the new stuff setup. It should all be fine though. I don't expect to be hitting any kind of power peaks like that for more than a few seconds at a time and not very often. Thanks for the info though I've actually seen 12/2 pull like 100a in free air. Scary.

The SSR's worked great for what I was using them for, but for these new amps, there is no place for them.

Also, these amps are designed with a regulated switching mode power supply to handle voltage fluctuations very well.
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post #71 of 488 Old 05-08-2011, 06:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

I just made one of these using a Crydom solid state relay piggy-backed by a small heat sink. Also wired in a female 1/8" stereo plug so it can easily be controlled by my 12 volt trigger out from my receiver. Works like a charm!

I have made a few of those using solid state relays, but they always quit on me after 6 months to a year. I even went to over sized SSR's and had the same problem. May have just been my luck with relays, but I switched to mechanical relays and they have been working for over a year with no problems. [IMG][/IMG]
They only cost about $2.00. I am powering on four pro amps using several of these. For wiring, I just use scrap 12 gauge extension cords. [IMG][/IMG] Since I have the cords to make these, I only have about $10 in each of them. The color does not bother me since all of my equipment sits in a mechanical room.
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post #72 of 488 Old 05-08-2011, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

It's actually run in wall and not accessible, so it's going to stay 10 gauge for now. If I could upgrade, I'd take your advice. I've seen the SSR's under full load drop 100w. The only time that's ever happened is when I've output full signal 10hz sine waves. However, before the SSR, I've seen the amps briefly pull 2900w, and continuously 2500, without the voltage dropping. Granted, a 30a circuit will carry 3600w at maximum load, but that's higher than I've been able to observe with the current gear. I'll take some measurements when I have the new stuff setup. It should all be fine though. I don't expect to be hitting any kind of power peaks like that for more than a few seconds at a time and not very often. Thanks for the info though I've actually seen 12/2 pull like 100a in free air. Scary.

The SSR's worked great for what I was using them for, but for these new amps, there is no place for them.

Also, these amps are designed with a regulated switching mode power supply to handle voltage fluctuations very well.

I remember seeing an amp chart somewhere, whereby the comments column stated aspects like "immune from power-line fluctuations, succumbs to power-line voltage drop" etc.

Measuring the voltage drop is tricky stuff. On one hand, it's straight forward and easily discernible. However, I'm convinced there exists an instantaneous voltage drop, that corresponds to large drive signals that deplete the PS components. Ohm's law would dictate there would be an instantaneous voltage drop concurrent with each transient amperage demand, regardless of duration. This would be difficult to measure with the typical methods we use due to the inherent brevity of the event. As I said, I'm unclear as to how much this impacts performance @ the LP, but errring on the safe side is nice.

---------

Funny story about voltage drop. Necessity is the mother of invention. Prior to the advent of "Field Turf", which is the current artificial playing surface in the NFL, staff at the RCA Dome would use various equipment to clean and maintain the old "AstroTurf" style playing surface. This was just like a big 3M Scotch Pad carpet, and virtually indestructible. Staffers would use floor scrubbers to scrub the carpet clean, then vacuum it up. Well a surface that big means you're quite a ways away from any receptacle. The voltage drop at the end of a 200 foot cord, with the scrubber pulling 15 amps, rendered it in-operable. We built a buck/boost transformer onto a 2wheel hand truck. They would wheel this thing out to the field, and plug it in like normal. We hardwired a 300 foot cord on the load side so they could use the scrubbers wherever they wanted without moving the two wheel cart transformer. We tapped the Xformer to put out about 145 volts or so. That way, at the end of the cord, the operational voltage was ideal, ~120v, for their usage. Done.

In a convention center/football stadium environment, voltage drop considerations were commonplace. Regardless where a client wanted power, and regardless how much they wanted, we would provide it. We had to get extremely creative. You'll be fine with the 10awg, and as you're already aware, assure connections possess adequate surface area, and that they're nice and tight. Your system progression has been fascinating, and your LF capability is truly world class,....no question. As you move forward, optimizing the system even more, many of us are enjoying your continued impressions.


Good luck

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post #73 of 488 Old 05-08-2011, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. My new gear is in Hong Kong at the DHL sorting facility all weekend. I'm obsessively clicking the tracking link waiting for it to move. I guess sometime this week I should have it. There will be a lot of updates and information flowing then.
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post #74 of 488 Old 05-08-2011, 03:35 PM
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Are the relays for a remote amp location or just for in-room convenience? What is triggering the relays? I guess if the relays had 120v coils you could trigger them with the switched outlet on the back of a receiver (do they still have them?).

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post #75 of 488 Old 05-08-2011, 03:59 PM
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Yes, those amps are going to be quite interesting.

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post #76 of 488 Old 05-08-2011, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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relays mounted and boxes punched up, just gotta hook em up now =]
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post #77 of 488 Old 05-09-2011, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

...oftentimes breakers trip resulting from the effects of escalating voltage drop, that heighten current...

That's a new one on me.

How does voltage drop increase current?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

...oftentimes breakers trip resulting from the effects of escalating voltage drop, that heighten current...

How does voltage drop increase current?

For someone who claims to be technical, I find your hand-wavy admonishments odd, as they're meaningless without quantification.

50' of 10 awg is .051 ohms, giving a voltage drop of 1.53V.

120VAC would become 118.47VAC, which would reduce power by 2.53%, or .11 dB.

I admit I'm not so sure about the the transient situation, where the cap charging near the top of the waveform may vary nonlinearly with the peak voltage.

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post #78 of 488 Old 07-20-2011, 03:32 PM
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notnyt

I have a question on the 12v relays. I purchased a couple and seem to have a problem as I was testing them out. When I apply AC (line) the the relay, I see the the voltage at both terminals. I'm assuming that the switch is normally open and once you apply the 12v signal the relay closes and then passes the AC. I also was able to measure approx. 60V on the heat sink on the back of the module.

Something doesn't seem right? I may need to contact Mouser to see if they can send me a couple more units.

Just wanted to verify that only applying voltage to one of the load terminals, I should not get any (leakage?) voltage across the second terminal. This is all done without any 12v trigger connection.

thx.

marty
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post #79 of 488 Old 07-20-2011, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfb View Post

notnyt

I have a question on the 12v relays. I purchased a couple and seem to have a problem as I was testing them out. When I apply AC (line) the the relay, I see the the voltage at both terminals. I'm assuming that the switch is normally open and once you apply the 12v signal the relay closes and then passes the AC. I also was able to measure approx. 60V on the heat sink on the back of the module.

Something doesn't seem right? I may need to contact Mouser to see if they can send me a couple more units.

Just wanted to verify that only applying voltage to one of the load terminals, I should not get any (leakage?) voltage across the second terminal. This is all done without any 12v trigger connection.

thx.

marty

The SSR's will store some voltage, so measuring will give you readings. If you have a load hooked up to them, it will dissipate the voltage almost immediately.

I ended up using mechanical relays as 30a is too much for SSRs now, I believe I edited the first post and linked them as well.

Actually, I didn't update the first post, but these are the relays I'm using now:

http://www.mouser.com/Search/Product...L-1ATUBJCBDC12
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post #80 of 488 Old 07-20-2011, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

The SSR's will store some voltage, so measuring will give you readings. If you have a load hooked up to them, it will dissipate the voltage almost immediately.

I ended up using mechanical relays as 30a is too much for SSRs now, I believe I edited the first post and linked them as well.

Actually, I didn't update the first post, but these are the relays I'm using now:

http://www.mouser.com/Search/Product...L-1ATUBJCBDC12

Yes. I noticed you changed relays.

I'll contact Mouser and see what they say.

thx.

marty
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post #81 of 488 Old 08-24-2011, 02:15 AM
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Wanted to dig this thread back up since I finally had a chance to wire my rig up.
Due to the size of the SSRs (2x40A and 5x25A) I have mine for sale if anyone is interested (all with heatsinks).

I bought all 30A mechanical relays like notnyt to simplify things. Sorry no real internal pics, but I had an issue setting this up from my receiver trigger. Guess the trigger out on receivers is low amperage and not able to handle more than one 75ohm coil relay. I have 5 pro amps to turn on. After the first amp was on, the +12v voltage dropped far enough to not allow anything else to come on.

Here's my solution. I pulled apart a standard PC atx power supply. Eliminated all the excess wiring except one +12v rail pair. Used a standard 30A automotive relay mounted internal of the case. Ran the receiver trigger out to the automotive relay which closes the ground (green) remote wire for the power supply to turn on. This then triggers all my pro amps mechanical relays which are all mounted internal of my amps between the front switch wiring of each amp. I used terminal strips on the back of each amp for the +12v daisy chained all together. Made for a neat package and allowed me to finish up the rack. The pc power supply sits velcro'd to the top of the bottom amps.
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post #82 of 488 Old 03-02-2013, 08:47 PM
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Great DIY!

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I have a question about the construction of the trigger box in the first post.

If I have a spare mono 1/8th inch mini phono plug cable laying around, can I snip off one end and wire that directly into the relay's 12VDC trigger, instead of using a standard RCA cord plus 1/8th mini adapter?
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post #83 of 488 Old 03-02-2013, 09:32 PM
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Could do it that way. Also if enough room could just mount the relay inside the amp.

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post #84 of 488 Old 03-02-2013, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Could do it that way. Also if enough room could just mount the relay inside the amp.

I should just mount/wire in a female mini plug to the work box, itself. Someone above did that, and it makes a lot of sense. Not sure where to buy such a jack, however.

EDIT: here we go: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/161-7300-EX/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv0W4pxf2HiV2oxafp8PWP3uLV6puKy7fU%3D
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post #85 of 488 Old 03-03-2013, 01:44 AM - Thread Starter
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You can get those from any local radio shack. Very common.
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post #86 of 488 Old 03-03-2013, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

You can get those from any local radio shack. Very common.

Thanks. Looks like it will be easy/cheap enough to add a couple to my order from Mouser when I buy the relay(s).

Dumb DIY-question: how would I wire the TRS connecters on the female jack to the 12VDC side of the relay? Shield to positive? Combine T/R and wire to negative on the relay?
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post #87 of 488 Old 03-03-2013, 06:55 AM
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Tip is hot +, ring is shield/ground

really i don't see the 12v side mattering long as it creates a path to close with 12v on it

If the relay is the same mech one, watch for mounting with the reset side button pushed. That had me for a sec when mounting in tight spaces inside the amps.

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post #88 of 488 Old 03-03-2013, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
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Tip is hot +, ring is shield/ground

If I send Tip to + and Ring to to negative, where does Shield on the jack go to? Again, apologies for ignorance on this. I really appreciate the help.
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post #89 of 488 Old 03-03-2013, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
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If I send Tip to + and Ring to to negative, where does Shield on the jack go to? Again, apologies for ignorance on this. I really appreciate the help.
If the wire you use has two conductors plus the shield, just wire the two conductors to the plug, socket and the relay coil (or control if SSR). Don't connect the shield to anything as it's not needed.
If your wire has a single conductor and shield you will need to use both.

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post #90 of 488 Old 03-03-2013, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

If the wire you use has two conductors plus the shield, just wire the two conductors to the plug, socket and the relay coil (or control if SSR). Don't connect the shield to anything as it's not needed.
If your wire has a single conductor and shield you will need to use both.

Well, I'm not going to be using a wire, per se.

I'd like to use this female 3.5mm jack screwed into the work box.

So, I'd have T, R, and S leads on the back of the jack, that need to be wired directly to the +/- on the relay itself. But I'm too dumb to understand how the the T, R and S need to connect to +/-. tongue.gif
Sam S is offline  
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